Invisible Disabilities in the Workplace: Trust, Inclusion and Advocacy - Debbie Pearmain
Navigating the workplace with an invisible condition. Insights on building trust, self-advocacy, and communicating effectively with managers and HR.
Debbie Pearmain - Bio
Debbie has worked with CEOs and leadership teams for over 25 years at more than 150 companies. She has been facilitating organizational and leadership transformation projects with Accenture, Global Knowledge, LHH Knightsbridge, DDI, Telus Health and One Stop HR.
Debbie is an excellent facilitator, coach and strategic thinker. She helps clients view problems as opportunities for growth and change. Her background in Social Work and Human Resource Management has given her a deep understanding of human behavior and makes her a culture expert. Her extensive training in Leadership Development and Emotional Intelligence assists clients in reaching new levels of engagement and performance. Debbie is a Flourishing ife coach and a Flourishing workplace coach. She is certified in Personality, Leadership, Emotional Intelligence and Resiliency assessments. Her past client list is extensive and spans all industries including government, non profit, union and private sector environments. Debbie is an excellent facilitator, coach and strategic thinker. She helps clients view problems as opportunities for growth and change and creates breakthrough strategies that help people and organizations achieve their full potential.
Over the last decade, she has worked with companies to create healthy and resilient workplace cultures and speaks regularly about mental health at conferences, industry events and through the CMHA and Telus health workplace EAP programs.
Summary
Fear, challenges, self-doubt, and the struggle to be understood. How do you thrive in a workplace that doesn’t always see your invisible disability?
Debbie Pearmain, Founder of One Stop HR gives her perspective on creating inclusive workplaces and how someone who lives with an invisible disability can navigate the workplace.
She bridges the gap between supporting individuals with invisible disabilities and helping workplaces understand the importance of disability inclusion. In this episode, Debbie shares practical advice on self-advocacy, building trust with managers, and fostering compassionate work environments.
We emphasize psychological safety and address the fear of disclosing invisible disabilities in the workplace, highlighting the role of leadership in creating a caring work environment.
Debbie also shares her personal experiences with mental health, self-acceptance, self-compassion, and overcoming fear.
Takeaways:
Inclusive Environment: Disability inclusion in the workplace involves creating a diverse and equitable environment where everyone feels welcome and belongs.
Psychological Safety: Psychological safety and trust are essential for employees to feel comfortable disclosing invisible conditions and seeking support.
Leadership Role: Leaders play a crucial role in fostering a caring and compassionate work environment that supports employees with invisible conditions.
Fear of Disclosure: Fear of disclosing invisible conditions can impact an individual's work and well-being, highlighting the need for understanding and support from leadership.
Collaborative Performance Management: Performance management should be a collaborative partnership between employees and managers, focusing on removing barriers and creating a supportive work environment.
Self-Acceptance: Self-acceptance and self-compassion are essential for personal growth and well-being.
Gradual Confidence Building: Overcoming fear and building confidence is a gradual process that involves starting with safe relationships and gradually progressing to more challenging conversations.
Ending Stigma: Creating inclusive work environments and ending the stigma surrounding invisible conditions requires open-mindedness, empathy, and a commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Navigating Difficult Conversations: Navigating difficult conversations in the workplace involves self-reflection, understanding biases, and fostering trusting relationships through open communication.
Chapters:
00:00:00 Navigating Workplace With Invisible Disabilities
00:15:34 Evolving Performance Management in the Workplace
00:24:39 Overcoming Fear to Self-Advocate
00:34:39 Empowering Voices for Disability Inclusion
00:46:10 Creating Inclusive Workplace Environments
Transcript
Debbie Pearmain
00:00
Plan the conversation, Prepare what you're going to say. Just don't go in and wing it right. Be very specific about what challenges you're having, the impacts they're having on you, and don't just come in with the problem. You know this. Every manager wants you also to give solutions. Look into what some reasonable workplace accommodations could be and go into your manager saying here's some suggestions of what I think could help.
Tim Reitsma
00:30
Work challenges, self-doubts and the struggle to be understood. How do you perform in a workplace that doesn't always understand your invisible disability? Hey, tim here and thanks for tuning into another episode of Invisible Condition Podcast, where we talk about advocacy and unusually normal things the conditions, diseases and illnesses we live with. We will end the stigma of invisible disabilities by empowering voices, and today's voice is brought to us by Debbie Pearmain, an HR expert, leadership development coach and workplace culture advocate. Debbie's journey in HR and leadership development gives us a unique perspective on creating inclusive spaces. She bridges the gap between supporting individuals with invisible disabilities and also helps workplaces understand the importance of disability inclusion. And in this episode, Debbie shared practical advice on self-advocacy. Really, this is kind of cool building trust with your manager and then creating compassionate work environments. So if you were struggling with disclosing your condition in the workplace, or maybe you're on the other end and you're leading a workplace and are committed to creating a disability inclusive space, tune in.
01:37
This episode is for you. Have a listen, Debbie. I am excited to record with you For those who can't see us. Maybe you're listening to the podcast. Debbie, I am excited to record with you For those who can't see us. Maybe you're listening to the podcast, Debbie, and I decided to wear matching glasses today. I love it. That's a good way to start the podcast black framed glasses. Debbie, you and I go back a number of years. I used to another podcast for a publication called People Mention People. We really connected there through your HR experience, through your leadership development experience and for your workplace culture experience, and I think this is just going to be such a fun podcast for those who live with an invisible condition and maybe you're navigating the workplace but maybe you're a leader or in HR and you've stumbled upon this episode and are just trying to understand disability inclusion. So, before we get into it, Debbie, thanks for joining us. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about the work that you do and the people that you support?
Debbie Pearmain
02:35
Thank you so much for having me, tim. It's so great to be back and fun to be having this conversation with you. I've been in HR for 25 years, so a long time. I feel like I've seen a lot over my journey in HR and I'm not sure if you remember, but my initial career actually was in social work. I used to work with at-risk youth, so I definitely have a real you know bent towards supporting people, empowering people.
03:04
So of course, I ended up in the people and culture space in HR, because HR is a broad field and I'd say 20 years I've been doing a lot of just leadership development, employee training, career development, performance management, coaching. You know, performance management, coaching, culture creation. I do employee engagement surveys. I help create engaging workplaces where employees can flourish. I think you also know I'm a flourishing, certified flourishing workplace and flourishing life coach, and so I do have my ICF designation as a coach and so as part of my practice, I work one-on-one with people, helping them to be resilient and, yeah, just live their best life and try to flourish in the midst of all the change and challenges that we're all living through right now. So that's a little bit about me and my background.
Tim Reitsma
04:01
Well, and I think you're a perfect for this episode because you do bridge that space of. You support individuals as well as you support workplaces. And this is maybe a bit of a different episode than someone coming on and telling their story of an invisible condition, because I wanted to provide a number of podcasts, a number of episodes that support people with an invisible condition and, in this case, how to really navigate this world of work with an invisible condition, specifically, how to communicate with your manager. If you need to disclose something in the workplace, what do you do? But before we get into it, there's really thinking about disability inclusion and I think we need to lay that foundation first. What does disability inclusion?
Debbie Pearmain
04:51
mean, yeah, I mean, okay, there's a lot to it. And so, of course, the last number of years has really shone a spotlight on, you know, hr prioritizing this idea of DEI, right, diversity, equity and inclusion. And so what does that really mean? It means we are diverse as a species, as human beings, and there's all kinds of differences, right, we've got different genders, different ages, different orientations. We've got, like you said, we've got illnesses. We've got physical disabilities. We have we've got illnesses, we've got physical disabilities. We have mental health disabilities, different religions, different cultures and really, especially I think in Canada, we've got this human rights code that protects anyone with a designated disability, as well as wanting to create a diverse multicultural society.
05:48
So the first place is to really take a look at your life, your workplace, your team. Does it reflect the diversity of our society, right? So that's the first thing. And how do we then make sure we don't just have teams and workplaces that reflect diversity? Do we treat everyone equally? And, of course, you know from some of the work that I've done and other people have done in this space, it's we all have biases, some are conscious, some are unconscious biases, some are conscious, some are unconscious, and there are workplaces, for example, that have diversity but they don't have equity. Does everyone have access to the same things, like? I mean, there's still I speak on things like there's still disparity in terms of salaries with genders. Right, you've got two people in a management position and a male employee is making more money than a female. So we have a lot of work still to do when it comes to the equity space.
06:55
And then let's move forward now to what does this word inclusion mean? And it's everyone belongs equally, everyone feels welcome, and it's have you been able to create a workplace that is open to differences? So I mean we could say, like neurodiversity as a topic I do, teaching on how to help workplaces create more neurodiverse workplace cultures, create more neurodiverse workplace cultures. Are you recruiting people with neurodiversity? How are you orienting people who are neurodiverse? How are you performance managing them? Do they feel welcome? Do they feel like they belong?
07:44
And so, yeah, this inclusion piece is really near and dear to my heart, because it's everyone belongs, full stop, right, not just neurotypical people, not just certain genders, not just certain cultures. And if you've ever not felt like you've belonged right to a group, you know the impact that that can have on a person's mental health, on their well-being, and so I believe everyone has strengths and I really work hard to help leaders, managers, hr folks create workplaces that really highlight and utilize a strength-based approach. Right, and there's a lot of work, tim, that we need to do because we've got some very unflexible and rigid people and workplace structures. But, anyways, that's a little bit of my perspective on what we're trying to do when we talk about inclusion.
Tim Reitsma
08:48
Yeah, disability inclusion there's so much work that needs to be done and on the flip side, there's so much data that supports disability in their DEI or in their inclusion strategy. There's reports from Accenture and Boston Consulting Company and KPMG that say, if you support people with disabilities, you will outperform the market. That's it. You'll outperform the market, your employee retention will go up, your employee morale will go up, your revenues will go up. You're broadening your talent pool. But you brought in a key word which is unflexible.
09:29
I've compiled one of the most comprehensive databases on my website on invisibleconditioncom, of invisible conditions and example accommodations. There's over 250 invisible conditions and the most common word that came up in this database is flexibility, and we have to embrace flexibility if we want to truly create organizations where everyone can belong, and that doesn't mean flexible to go hey, I'm just going to go work on a beach somewhere. It's flexibility in hey, I need time off to go to a medical appointment, or hey, I'm not feeling well, today can I work from home or hey, can I just always work from home?
10:17
I get a lot of work done. There's so much that we need to do from not just from a societal perspective, but from a workplace perspective, and we focus specifically on the workplace. If somebody is listening to this and they have an invisible condition, a non-apparent health condition, and they need to disclose, it's often met with and I'm speaking from experience, as well as 50 plus interviews I've done.
Debbie Pearmain
10:51
There's a lot of fear.
Tim Reitsma
10:52
There's a lot of stress. So, speaking to somebody with an invisible condition, what advice, what would you offer somebody with an invisible condition who needs to disclose? Somebody with an invisible condition who needs to disclose?
Debbie Pearmain
11:05
Oh my gosh, such a great question and I feel like we could go in so many different directions. I want to start first by just highlighting something really important that you just said, which is there's 250 invisible conditions.
Tim Reitsma
11:21
And that's not even complete yet. There's so many different conditions, so many and you can't see that.
Debbie Pearmain
11:48
And I think we have to go back to some of these basics. If I think of HR and just this evolution of mental health in the workplace, I've been working in that space for 15 years, as you know, through TELUS Health, also doing a bit of teaching with the Canadian Mental Health Association, and it's still fascinating to me that when I'm talking to a manager or even other employees and someone, for example, you know, goes off on a stress leave or short-term disability due to a mental health condition, that people's reactions are like well, how do you really know that's what's happening? Because we can't see it. And it's just like there's so much bias in people's thinking, because I'm literally sitting there and there was a time where I was having heart issues a few years ago and I was like in those conversations with leaders and saying, well, I have a heart condition right now. Can you see that about me? Right? And it just right away flipped it on its head to get people to understand everyone is struggling with something. So to even start this conversation, it's how about we create work environments that are compassionate and caring, that everyone comes to work with something going on, and if it's not something going on with me. Personally, it could be I might have a child who's struggling, I might have a spouse who's struggling, I might have an in-law who's dying, I might have someone that I'm loving and supporting through a cancer journey. Like people are coming to work bringing their whole self, and so how do we create work environments that are actually open, that are caring, that are compassionate, regardless of whether we're talking about a physical health issue or a mental health issue or an invisible condition, like it doesn't matter.
13:51
So let's just start there, coming from a place of care. And then what does that look like? So your question obviously tons of fear will be there if there isn't psychological safety in the first place. Right, and so, again, let's teach leaders how to create relationships with people where there's psychological safety. And now in Canada we have these 13 factors that measure psychological safety in a relationship in your organization. It's called the national standard. There's 13 factors and, tim, I've started, when I do my employee engagement surveys for companies, I've started assessing those 13 factors for psychological health and well-being, because if trust exists between you and me and you're my manager and there's respect there going both ways, then I am going to be more willing to share with you the things in my life that are impacting my ability to perform and like I'm kind of giving you some of these building blocks right. So it's like first let's create a culture that cares, where there's compassion and understanding. Let's create a culture where there's psychological safety. Let's teach managers how to create trusting, respectful relationships with people. And then the last thing I'm going to say is let's teach leaders and Employees kind of showed up.
15:34
I remember showing up to my first performance review. I knew nothing about it, didn't know what the form looked like, didn't know what they were assessing, had no input. It was literally done. To me it was a bit of a traumatic experience, to be honest, and I left that thinking. There has to be a better way. Right Now, thank goodness, here we are fast forward 25 years and I'm now teaching leaders and employees.
16:23
There's two sides to this relationship. If you truly want to create a high-perform, performing, engaging workplace culture, your performance management process needs to be a partnership and it needs to be collaborative. So if you're my manager, tim, you've got 50 percent responsibility for our relationship being successful, but I also own 50 percent as the employee. But I also own 50% as the employee, and workplaces typically have only been teaching leaders how to manage performance, and then they come to me because they're like our performance management isn't working, employees aren't engaged, we're not getting high performance. What's wrong? Well, you've only taught 50% of the relationship how to make this process successful. It would be like you and I being married and one of us going to marriage counseling and then wondering why it wasn't working right. It's meant to be a partnership, it's meant to be a collaboration, and I am getting to the answer of your question, but it's not a simple answer.
17:33
As you can see, there's a lot of steps that need to be in place so that if employees understand their 50% of performance management part of that 50% is I need to come to you as my manager and tell you the barriers that are getting in the way of me being successful, and there needs to be the safety, the trust and the respect in the relationship for me to be open and honest with you. That's a piece of what I own in this relationship and in this performance management partnership, and the piece, then, that the manager owns is to ask the questions right, is to recognize signs that someone's performance is struggling and then to sit down with that person and inquire to find out why. So we do, in Canada, have something called the duty to inquire. So if I notice your performance is not what it usually is, then I have a duty as your manager to say hey, tim, you know what's happening for you lately, because these are some things I've observed and this is a change in you. These are some things I'm experiencing, and this isn't like you. Is everything okay. That's the duty to inquire.
18:56
Now, when there's trust and safety in the relationship, you then, as the employee, doing your 50% to remove the barriers, if you felt safe and comfortable, might say you know what, Debbie, I'm struggling with my anxiety and you know normally I'm pretty high functioning, but just recently something happened in my life I don't need to tell you what that is and it's really starting to affect me and I'm noticing that. You know it's harder for me to make decisions. I'm not sleeping as well. Yeah, I'm just. I'm noticing this is going on, also in my performance.
19:40
Could you imagine if we could have workplaces where we are teaching managers and employees how to work together in this way and then, tim, as the caring, supportive manager not the counselor or the therapist your job at that point is to then say okay, so what are the challenges you're having from a performance perspective? How can I help you overcome those challenges, like here's where you're performing, here's where I need you to be. This is the gap that exists. What strategies can we put in place to remove those barriers? Prioritize your workload, or it could get into this area of accommodations, right, and again, in Canadian workplaces, managers have a duty to accommodate. So I just want to lay that foundation for you as we now start to unpack a lot of what I just said. So, yes, there's a ton of fear because most workplaces don't do any of the things that I just mentioned to you and we can do better.
Tim Reitsma
20:58
Yeah, you're absolutely right. There's so many workplaces. There are workplaces that are progressive and are taking action on this.
Debbie Pearmain
21:04
Yeah, they're getting there.
Tim Reitsma
21:06
But I keep coming across workplaces that keep saying, well, I don't have the budget, well, you don't need a budget to be a place of work of good people that actually care. Yeah, sure, maybe you need to bring in an external facilitator to do some training and all that good stuff, but to be a good employer, you don't need a budget for that. You just show up as a good human. It's not that hard.
Debbie Pearmain
21:36
Well, I mean, I love that you just said that, tim, and sadly it kind of is that hard, because here's the thing the issues are that companies are experiencing.
7
21:50
You know, we can honestly, if we take a hard look at ourselves, direct most of that back to whoever's in leadership, right? So caring compassionate companies start with caring compassionate leaders and sadly, I mean, you know, I also speak to a lot of CEO groups across the country through various CEO organizations and I specifically go in there and speak to them around topics of mental health Right and around how do we create an engaging workplace culture when currently, right now, two out of five Canadians are struggling with their mental health? Canadians are struggling with their mental health right? This is a hard topic right now for companies and I still just had this happen to me two weeks ago in a room of CEOs, had a number of people dismiss me right at the beginning of my presentation. I was there for three hours and their attitudes very clearly is I'm here to make money, I'm running a business, this isn't my problem. So, as much as we think, oh, this is simple, I'm like no, and I can absolutely tell you that that person's organization in the next five years will have massive issues with turnover of issues with turnover, with attracting and retaining good people, because one of the most important things that employees are looking for today is workplaces that care, workplaces that are flexible, workplaces that are supportive, and workplaces that they are able to integrate their work and personal lives in a healthy way.
Tim Reitsma
23:29
And if we think about just workplaces and even on that topic of performance, I'm speaking to leaders, hr people, but even individuals right now, it's you know, if we start measuring things that matter, you know, instead of measuring time at your computer and putting in performance KPIs around that, what if we put in KPIs around specific goals and measure specific goals? And so for me and any team that I've led throughout my career, it's I don't here's your goals. We know that my leaders, my management, has agreed to these goals. So if it takes you six hours a day to get this stuff done, I don't care, because we're going to get this done. Now, if you're only putting in six hours of work, sure, check your performance, but here's an opportunity for you to then get hungry and want to learn more. And so, bringing it back to specifically invisible conditions in the workplace, I love how you've summarized it. It's high level and it's complicated, but it doesn't have to be that complicated because, if you're listening to this, Debbie's just outlined a high level roadmap for you.
24:39
I have an invisible condition and I've often feared disclosing, and I know there's a duty to accommodate. There's reasonable accommodations, there's human rights protections for me and for people like me, specifically here in Canada, but also in the US. Us is a little bit more complicated, but there is fear. I live with Crohn's disease. You look at me. I quote unquote look normal. Don't like that word.
25:05
I wrote a blog about it. You can go read it, but I'm my version of normal. I wrote a blog about it. You can go read it, but I'm my version of normal. I'm missing most of my large intestines, so my body functions very differently than somebody who has all of their intestines. I have feared sharing that. I also live with anxiety and depression and I don't share that very often because I don't want that to affect my opportunity for a future contract or future employment. So how do we support someone who is struggling to disclose and it is affecting their work and they know it's affecting their work, but there's so much fear in disclosing because there might not have that trusting relationship. So, speaking specifically to somebody who has an invisible condition, what would you offer that person?
Debbie Pearmain
25:59
Yeah, what a great question. And I mean, first of all, just, you know, share as well that I have lived experience with mental health, that I have lived experience with mental health, both anxiety, depression, as well as PTSD, and so I can completely relate to the fear that you're talking about. And I think a lot of this has to do with our own personal journeys of self-acceptance, right, and I also, you know, I do a lot of coaching with people around things like self-acceptance and self-compassion, because when we can accept ourselves right for who we are and what is going on in our bodies without judgment, now this becomes a self-compassion piece. Now this becomes a self-compassion piece. It's empowering when we recognize that there's nothing actually wrong with us and it's not our fault, right. So these things have happened, whether it's because of genetics, whether it's because of environmental factors, whether it's because of abuse, like there's so many contributing factors to any invisible condition, and I think helping us get to this place of self-acceptance then helps us develop self-compassion. You know we're so great at maybe having compassion for someone else who's experiencing something difficult, compassion for someone else who's experiencing something difficult, and yet I know myself and a lot of the people I coach struggle with a very strong, you know, internal critic or judge, and as long as that's what's going on right, then that is what's going to prevent us from self-management and self-advocacy, right? So there's kind of these pillars that I, when I'm working with someone, coaching them around, this idea of flourishing.
27:59
A lot of that is accepting who you are, where you're at, what's going on for you, having compassion for yourself so that you then can advocate for what it is that you need. And I look at what we're talking about here today, going back to this place of what is it that the employee can control in the relationship with their manager? It's to know who they are, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are. So what is helping them be successful? What are the barriers getting in the way of their success? What do they need to thrive and be successful? And then the next step once we do that with people, once I've worked with people to help them get to that place, the next step for them is now how can I help you to start self-advocating, which is the speaking up and the being honest and being open and sharing and being assertive? And this is where agency comes in. And you are absolutely right, fear keeps us quiet, right, fear keeps us hiding.
29:17
I remember the first time I ever got up in a group full of people and talked about my mental health and I was shaking, I broke out in hives, I was bawling my eyes out, like it was an extremely scary, stressful experience for me.
29:36
And when I got to the other side of that and the way that people kind of embraced me and like said you were so brave and like I'm so grateful you shared that and you know, then people started sharing things with me that they had been going through, it was like there was freedom on the other side, right? But, tim, that was like one conversation at a time. That was 15 years ago. Fast forward to where I am now today, where I speak at conferences on podcasts. I teach about this in the workplace. No questions are off limits, I don't get stressed at all. That didn't happen overnight. So my encouragement for the people who would be listening to this podcast is start with the relationships where you do feel safe. Start opening up to the people in your life that you do trust right when there is that safe attachment and see how they respond to you.
Tim Reitsma
30:34
Yeah.
Debbie Pearmain
30:34
Right and just get your feet wet, starting to advocate for yourself in those relationships. You don't go from not doing any of that to like doing that to the relationship with your boss that has the greatest amount of risk and fear. Like that would be. Like you saying, Debbie, I want to start hiking and I'm like, great, Next week we're doing Mount Everest. Are you ready? Like right. So I'd be like, start talking more honestly with your spouse or your best friend, even your children. Like build up some confidence, build up that muscle of even assertiveness, asking for what you want and need, and eventually, right then, through counseling, through coaching, through support, as your confidence grows, you then can maybe tackle that difficult conversation with the manager. And I would also say right then. These practices that I teach in my workshops around having difficult conversations are also really helpful. So, plan the conversation, prepare what you're going to say. Just don't go in and wing it right. Be very specific about what challenges you're going to say. Just don't go in and wing it. Be very specific about what challenges you're having, the impacts they're having on you, and don't just come in with the problem. You know this Every manager wants you also to give solutions.
32:04
I think the hardest part I hear from managers, even around accommodations, is know, my employee came in the other day and just dropped this bomb on me or drop this on my lap and then left, and now I'm sitting holding it and I have no idea how to fix it or what to do about it.
32:20
So even you know, as like you're doing your preparation and research, look into what some reasonable workplace accommodations could be and go into your manager saying here's some suggestions of what I think could help. Would you be open, Would you be willing for us to try this and just see right, Because every manager is going to be afraid if I say yes to this, other people are going to ask for it what kind of impacts that can have on your performance. So I also think employees have to think of the other person in the conversation. What might their questions be? What might their concerns be? What challenges might that pose for them? So I can absolutely, in a coaching conversation, support a listener to help navigate how to have that conversation, and I even do role playing with people. It's like, now that you have your plan, you've thought it through, like let's do a half hour coaching call and I'll pretend to be your manager and you come in and let's practice, and I'll throw out the quiet Like let's help you build that muscle, let's help you build that confidence.
Tim Reitsma
33:36
It absolutely is a muscle and, you know, maybe somebody is listening to this and is scared, is full of fear, and not fear of maybe that other person's reaction, but just fear of, like, stepping out and and bringing up the conversation. You feel exposed, you feel vulnerable, but I would say, without a doubt, 100% of everyone I've talked to um has felt that weight lifted off of them when they have opened up vulnerably, because it honestly has opened up so many conversations. Well, not just for myself, but even for every podcast . I heard from a podcast who was on and was speaking super honestly and vulnerably and he had numerous people reach out and say, hey, thank you for sharing that. This is what I'm struggling with as well, and it is building out friendships, it's building out the community.
34:36
And that's the big word and you're right, it doesn't happen overnight. And there's an article up on the site and it talks about self-advocacy and it really starts with why it matters to you, why it matters to someone, what are your values, what are you hoping to get out of this? And for a manager or an HR person, or even a family member who's listening to this? And you know, the data is crystal clear the one in four of us live with some sort of illness, disability, disease, that's either in the.
35:06
US or in Canada, I think it's over 16% of the world population live with a disability, so there's a lot of us. So you know somebody if you're listening to this and go.
35:14
well, I don't know anybody with a disability. Yes, you do. If you know more than four people, you know somebody, and so think about maybe they haven't disclosed. And think about that for a moment, whether you're in the workplace or in your friend group or in your family. Maybe it isn't a trusting relationship, maybe there's more that you can offer. But for somebody who needs to disclose for whatever reason maybe it's for an accommodation or they just need to build that community think about all that brain power, that effort it takes to not disclose and to hide who you truly are is exhausting, as you said.
35:55
So just think about that for a moment. If you're listening to this, just pause there for a moment. Just think about that massive impact on our friends, our family, our colleagues, and I love that you talked about just honing in on that communication skill and adapted a model, a feedback model called Situation Behavior Impact, the SBI feedback model. I love it Simple and so.
36:18
I've kind of adapted it over the year, over the last year, into situation feelings impacting the need. So what is the situation? How is it impact? How are you feeling? What is the impact and what do you need? Because you said, as a manager, you need a solution. Right, you know there's askjanorg, a great database of accommodations, the one on invisibleconditioncom. Another great company is discloadcom, so you can check them out. There's, there's so many resources out there to support disability inclusion from a manager and HR perspective, but also an individual perspective, and it's it's complex.
37:03
It's not as easy as like hey, now I'm a trusting leader, Tell me everything and let's unlock your performance. It takes you need to demonstrate it and the person on the who needs to disclose or wants to disclose, or if something is affecting your performance, takes courage and vulnerability.
Debbie Pearmain
37:22
But yeah, and like one conversation at a time right. We build trust with people one conversation at a time and we damage trust with people one conversation at a time. That you.
37:33
I, or anyone listening on this, can do is just be thankful and thank them right For being brave enough to share with you what they shared. And, yeah, ask how can you help, how can you support? And again, I think lots of leaders are afraid to even have that conversation with people because then they don't know what to do with the information they receive. And part of the teaching I do in workplaces again around disability management and mental health is to help leaders understand their role right. They're not there to become the person's counselor or therapist. They're there to create a work environment that supports people's strengths and helps mitigate, minimize weaknesses and barriers. And also their job is to be a bridge to whatever resources and supports that the employer provides and get to know resources and supports that are available in the community that they work in. So there's a lot.
38:48
Even just you know, like you said, if people are listening to this from the HR perspective, one of the things I say to HR folks is compile a list of all the community-based resources that support people in your workplace. So beyond your EAP program, beyond your benefits provider, it's here's all the other community-based resources that are there to support you if you're struggling with anything. So people know where they can go for help. Right, there is help available, there are resources.
39:20
Most people just don't know where to look, and I would then even say things like if someone's listening to this with an invisible condition, they're struggling with their workplace. If you have an EAP provider, that's a great place to start right, it's free, it's 100% confidential. You can get maybe five sessions working with a counselor or a coach who can help you navigate this, who can help you develop the courage, the confidence, the tools, the skills to even have a conversation with your manager about this. But I would absolutely agree with you on the hiding something because you feel shame or you feel judgment drains so much of our energy, it's exhausting. And so if you can present what's happening for you in a way that helps people understand what you need and clearly articulate and communicate how your manager or workplace can better support you to be successful, right, that's truly, I think, the goal of what we're hoping to get to in this conversation.
Tim Reitsma
40:38
Yeah, absolutely. I think there's so much packed already into this conversation for both those living with an invisible condition. Maybe you're in hr, maybe you're a manager, maybe you're just looking to learn more about disability inclusion and you know it starts with, you know, having that conversation. But understanding for yourself, living with it. Maybe you live with an invisible condition, maybe you're caring for someone, why it matters to you. Start there, you know, just grab a piece of paper, write it down, talk to yourself on your phone, send yourself a text, whatever why does it matter? And start having that internal conversation, because that will set the framework to then communicate outwards.
41:20
And maybe you're struggling, maybe you don't have access to an EAP. Reach out I mean reach out to myself. Debbie, I'll invite her to share her contact information as well here in a minute. There's, there's people here that that want to support you and if cost is a barrier for you, let me know. Um, you know how? How can I support you? Let's uh, let's create places and workplaces that people can, can truly thrive, that you can truly thrive. And, Debbie, as we wrap up, I asked this to all my s Invisible condition exists to end the stigma, this project that I'm working on, which is turning out to be more than a project, is really just to end the stigma, to empower voices and ignite social change? How are we going to end the stigma that surrounds invisible conditions?
Debbie Pearmain
42:10
I mean, again, this goes back to, like you said, creating like good humans, and so that's one relationship at a time, right? So I think of myself as a parent and, yes, there's all these goals, right, that we're trying to, you know, get our kids through elementary school, high school, get them to university, get them in the world of work, get them to move out of the house, right, like there's all like, I guess, the KPIs of parenting. But early on, you know, my husband and I sat down and we're like, at the end of the day, like we're shaping humans, and so what kind of people do we want our kids to grow up to be? What kind of character do we want them to have? What kind of values do we want them to have, and how can we help teach them those things? Right? And again, I'm going to say my hope is, hr folks are thinking these same things, leaders are thinking these same things and just even, as you said, that just people are thinking about this.
43:14
So I mean, if I want to have healthy, good relationships with people, one of the things that I really want to be able to do is be open to differences. Really want to be able to do is be open to differences, and there's still so many folks out there who struggle to accept people who are different from them, and we're more different than we are the same. So it's about being open to differences. And then it's do I strive in my relationships for there to be equality? So, if I'm in a relationship with someone who's different from me, do I have biases? And yes, we all do, conscious and unconscious. So have I spent any time getting to know my own unconscious biases? And there's lots of, you know, free assessments that you can do online to help you become aware of your own unconscious bias. And then it's again go back to inclusion and belonging. I want everyone I interact with to feel that they belong as they are, belong as they are.
44:27
So what does that look like in my relationships with people? Do I only accept people who show up perfectly? Do I leave relationships when there's a problem? Do I cut people off if there's conflict? These are all things that, as you say being a good human. What does that actually mean? What does that actually look like?
44:52
Can I tolerate differences and getting to even know, like your triggers right, what are those things that trigger you? Because the bigger your triggers, the more apparent that is a bias of some kind or a judgment of some kind that you have about a topic, right? So, as you get to know yourself and then, as you said, self-reflect what kind of human being do I want to be? Am I helping people feel that way that are in relationship with me? And I would say for myself, just on the mental health piece, it's also just as I've become more accepting of myself, my confidence has actually increased, and developing self-compassion has helped my confidence increase, and so the more that I can be open and honest and share with other people, that's helping break down stigma and it's also helping create more authentic relationships with people. So you know, I don't know, tim I do a lot of work in helping workplaces break down stigma, and so I hope that even just some of the things I've shared are giving your listeners some ideas.
Tim Reitsma
46:08
Absolutely. Maybe somebody, again just listening to this, who lives with an invisible condition, here's an episode that you can just share with your workplace. Just send it out, send it to everybody, send it to your manager, send it to HR and say, hey, this is an opportunity for us as a workplace, as a team, to do more or to do better. Or maybe you're working in an organization that fully supports you and you can say, look, we're validated. Now here's an episode to validate the work that we're doing, and it's not just a checklist of here's five things you need to do and then we're done, and we never need to worry about it again.
46:54
We're humans, we're complex, every day is different, we have things coming up in our personal life that may change daily, weekly, monthly, yearly, and that affects our performance. And so being able to create that trusting relationship within our workplaces will help us. That trusting relationship within our workplaces will help us dare I use the word thrive, it'll help us perform, it'll help us feel that we are included. And you know what? For me, if I feel included, man, I'm going to perform for you, I will stick around, I will create revenue. Whether you're for profit or not for profit, I'm going to drive this business forward. So it's good for business, it's good for everyone, and so, Debbie, as we wrap up, I just want to give our listeners an opportunity to, if they want to, learn more about you and the work that you're doing. Where can people find you?
Debbie Pearmain
47:45
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's great, thank you I. Before I do that, I'll just say I completely echo. If we can create real diversity, equity, inclusion right in our relationships, in our workplaces, that 100% impacts engagement, commitment, loyalty, commitment, loyalty, retention, productivity, work quality, creativity, like all those things Right. So, yeah, I love and am passionate about helping people do that in their relationships, but also helping workplaces to create environments like that. And so I would just say One Stop HR and it's One Stop HR dot CA. So the Canadian One Stop HR. And, of course, my name is Debbie Perrimane, so you can find me on LinkedIn and my website has my email address and my contact info as well. So I am happy always for people to email me questions, point people in the right direction, point people to resources.
48:55
I will just say you know you made a comment about counseling, and if your company doesn't have an EAP program, there are a lot of free resources now available, even for things like counseling. So the Canadian Mental Health Association has some great programs. They have a six-week program called Bounce Back. I don't know if you've heard of that, but it's a six-week coaching program. It's free and it's self-referred, so you don't need a doctor's referral, you don't need to tell anyone. You can just go on their website, you can refer yourself, you can register for this.
49:30
That's a great start for folks, and I also just saw you know I love following very positive, supportive people on Instagram and I just saw BetterHelp is offering free counseling for the month of June. So that's a. That's an app. Right, it's a counseling app, and I've even just seen um counseling platforms now that are offering counseling at $45 an hour. You know it's not. You don't have to spend $200 an hour to get the help and support you need. I do coaching, not counseling. So, like I said, flourishing life coaching, flourishing workplace coaching but I also do those engagement assessments, I do lots of training for leaders and employees and companies, and I also do consulting. So I'm happy to support your listeners in any of those capacities as well.
Tim Reitsma
50:23
I love that, Debbie. And yeah, for those who are listening, we'll include that in the show notes. So head to invisibleconditioncom slash podcast and you can search out Debbie's episode and all that information there. And for those who are listening, I really appreciate you. I appreciate all the comments I get, the feedback I get and if you have a moment, please rate us. I know that helps us go a long ways in making sure people find and discover InvisibleConditioncom. Please share this episode out and all episodes out with your friends, your family, your colleagues and I have two small asks. One is please subscribe to the InvisibleConditioncom newsletter. This is a great place for resources for articles. I'm spending a significant amount of time writing articles and creating resources free resources for people right now, as well as if you have a few dollars, maybe consider donating to help with the production of this episode as well as other episodes. That would be helpful as well. So with that, Debbie and listeners, I hope you have an amazing day. With that, Debbie and listeners, I hope you have an amazing day.
Debbie Pearmain
51:29
Thank you so much for having me, tim, and I will also say your Instagram posts are great, so for listeners to also check you out on Instagram, and you've got lots of good clips from past s and I've really enjoyed your posts and just so grateful for the work that you're doing in this space as well. So thank you for all you do and thanks for having me today.
Tim Reitsma
51:51
Appreciate you, Debbie, take care.
