Ep: 012 - Disability is diversity- Myles Wallace
Myles Wallace - Bio
Myles Wallace is a Disability Inclusion Partner for Peak Performers, a nonprofit staffing firm that’s been in business since 1994.
They staff businesses and government agencies who are passionate about hiring diverse candidates and building an inclusive work culture. As a nonprofit, they focus on recruiting candidates with disabilities and chronic medical conditions.
Myles looks at his work as changing the world one job at a time by building a workplace where all are valued and recognized for their ability, as opposed to their disability. Myles has a background in B2B sales, recruiting, and digital marketing.
Outside of work, Myles enjoys designing and playing hobby board games.
Contact Links:
Website - Peak Performers
LinkedIn - Myles Wallace
Resources:
Peak Performers - A nonprofit staffing agency where every job is an opportunity.
NEARLY HALF OF ACCOMMODATIONS FOR DISABLED WORKERS HAVE NO COST
The Disability Inclusion Advantage | Accenture
The ROI in workplace mental health programs: Good for people, good for business
Summary
Myle and Tim’s conversation explores the topic of employment for people with disabilities. Our guest, Myles Wallace, shares his personal experience with disability and his work as a disability inclusion partner. The conversation covers bias and discrimination in the workplace and the benefits of hiring people with disabilities. It also provides advice for job seekers with disabilities and encourages businesses to create inclusive environments and hire people with disabilities.
Takeaways
Creating an inclusive workplace environment benefits both employees and businesses.
Bias and discrimination can be overcome through education, open communication, and a willingness to learn.
Hiring people with disabilities can lead to increased profitability, productivity, and employee retention.
Job seekers with disabilities should feel empowered to disclose their disability and ask for accommodations.
Businesses should actively seek to hire people with disabilities and create inclusive hiring practices.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
03:58 The Value of Board Games
08:45 Personal Experience with Disability
12:26 Bias and Discrimination in the Workplace
16:09 Overcoming Bias and Discrimination
21:10 Fear of Hiring People with Disabilities
27:14 Benefits of Hiring People with Disabilities
36:12 Job Seekers with Disabilities
40:59 Accommodations and Disclosure
45:08 Call to Action for Businesses
Transcript
Tim Reitsma
Miles, I'm excited to talk with you today. You are an expert in the field of employment and especially people with disabilities and employment. So such a valuable conversation that we are going to be having today. I'm not sure where it's gonna go, but we're just gonna go with the flow of it. But thanks for joining me.
Myles Wallace
You're quite welcome, Tim. It's a pleasure to be here. And I am so happy to be talking with you and talking with all of your listeners to help change the norm about what it means to have a disability and to be employed.
Tim Reitsma
It's such a big topic and one that I started to do quite a bit of research on. And I know this is gonna add a lot of values to our listeners as well. But before we get into that, why don't you take a couple of minutes and just share with us a little bit about yourself.
Myles Wallace
Absolutely. So my name is Miles Wallace. I work for Peak Performers and I am a disability inclusion partner. I know that's kind of a funny sounding job title, but basically my job is to go out in the community and engage with clients to engage with job seekers and also to engage with community resources as well as other people that are willing to amplify Peak Performers voice in order to not only spread the mission, but also put people to work. Because here at Peak Performers, we are a nonprofit staffing agency.
that prioritizes the hiring of people with disabilities and putting people to work, that's something that's very core to our intrinsic values and what we stand about because you know you can talk a big game but at the end of the day we give people J-O-B-S and that's something that's incredibly meaningful to so many human beings out there. Personally, I would share with you that I am a board game designer so when I'm not talking about disabilities, when I'm not talking about employment and I'm not changing people's minds about what it means to have a disability while being employed. I actually am a board game designer. So I have my first couple of published titles that are gonna be coming out in the next several years on Kickstarters. It's been a long journey for me, but it's something that I'm incredibly passionate about. And I just love getting together with my friends to design games, to develop strategy games, and to really kind of bring people together because we spend so much time these days buried in our phones, looking at the news, looking at Twitter, looking at whatever the case happens to be, right? But to be able to bring families and friends together and give them a reason to see each other and spend a meaningful activity with each other, that's the other thing that gets me up and out of bed every morning.
Tim Reitsma
Wow, I have so many questions. I'm so curious about designing board games and that is an area that I'm fascinated about. My son, he's 10, he loves to design games and he loves to draw different boards, board designs on a piece of paper and create cutout tokens and often they're so complicated we can't play them but I just love how his brain works and I can imagine how your brain works in order to figure out that. So, you know, I'll park that curiosity for now and but I'm sure.
Myles Wallace
Well, here's what I would say. Here's what I would tell you, Tim, that your son is in a great place. We have seen within the board game community a revolution that's happened and a renaissance within the areas of board games where more and more people share my passion for bringing people out of their phones and to the table to share experiences with each other. And the really cool thing is that unlike coding for video games or unlike being able to paint a picture and stuff.
The barrier to entry is so low and the community is so collaborative. And there's so many people that are out there that are happy to help you. And in fact, I have a buddy that runs a game design course specifically for kids. So there's a cool wide world out there, but again, we'll talk about disabilities. We'll talk about board games some other day.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, well, we'll, we'll park that conversation. I'm really curious about the course, but we're here to talk about disability. I'm curious, you know, peak performers, uh, what, what got you so interested in this type of work?
Myles Wallace
Sure, so I myself have been a person with a disability for a very long time. About one years old, my hearing, the upper ranges of my hearing were knocked out by a series of ear infections that I had. And so functionally, I have been hearing impaired for almost my entire life. But my journey as a person with a disability is so reflective of so many other professionals with disabilities and so many other people with disabilities in that.
I was able to hide it. You know, you have people on your podcast that are always talking about invisible conditions. And that was really something that was true for me so many years was figuring out how to hide it and figuring out how to work around it. And I think, too, the thing that kind of stands out to me about the whole experience was that it not only was something to hide, but it was something that I was a little bit embarrassed about. It was something that I didn't want anybody to think differently of me.
And additionally, like sometimes it came down to really silly stuff in retrospect too Like I was vain about having the tube stick out of my ears for having hearing aids Most people can't even see it, but I was vain about that particular thing. So for me it was many years of Basically going through life and struggling to hear people. In fact, I remember my sixth grade Language arts teacher at the time. She said to me Miles, it seems like you're just not very good at listening. And it's kind of funny how spot on she was. Like I think she meant it from a different angle and it's a little bit hurtful when you think about it from that perspective. But it's something that I've kind of carried with me in the whole rest of my life is should be better at listening. And really I've sought to kind of overcome those barriers despite the fact that I knew that I had profound hearing loss pretty much since I was born.
And similar to so many other people, I learned to adapt. So I worked for six years in an Apple store. And for six years, I learned to read lips, to stand a little bit closer to people. I learned to really watch emotional expressions. And at the end of the day, I learned to fake it till I make it, right? If you are able to show positive emotions, if you're able to connect with people, sometimes you don't actually have to hear what they're saying to still connect with another human being. So sometimes at the end of the day, it's about
Myles Wallace
faking it. And I don't like to admit that, but at the end of the day, you know, you learn to adapt to whatever the situation is that you're thrown into. So for many, many years, I resisted wearing hearing aids altogether because it was something that I felt that I didn't need it. I felt that I was perfectly complete without it. And furthermore, I didn't want to be perceived as different from any kind of other people out there.
And then one day I was working at Peak Performers. I was about a year into my work with Peak Performers. And finally I was at a job fair. I'd probably talked to 400 people that day. And the last person exited my table and I was like, I'm just tired. I'm just so very, very tired of faking it, of trying to figure out how to do all of this without any kind of assistance. And ultimately it was the kind of thing where I decided that I wanted this.
For years, my mother had been after me and she'd been like, Miles, I'd so much like for you to wear hearing aids so that the rest of us don't have to shout at you. And the problem was that I'm a little bit stubborn, Tim. I'm a little bit stubborn when it comes to these sorts of things. And, you know, when you frame it like that, like it's for everybody else's benefit, but not mine, I needed to hear it the other way around. And so maybe if you have any caregivers in your audience right now that are talking with people about like how to encourage people to seek out the accommodations that they need to be successful in the world, or at least more comfortable in the world, then that might be the way to think about it, is how can you frame it that this is for your benefit and this is for your success? And in the end, I still hesitate sometimes to call them my hearing aids, because I prefer to think of them as my bionic ears, right? I prefer to think of them as something kind of cool, and I'm an augmented human in a way. And I don't know about you, but I can walk through the grocery store aisles, be listening to a podcast and be completely checked out of my own world and nobody realizes a dang thing. I can take all my calls directly on my phone and even if it's windy outside I can tap a button to cut down that wind noise so that I don't even hear it. And dang, that's pretty cool, right?
Tim Reitsma
That is, wow, I've never thought of it like that. You know, that bionic ears being able to turn on and turn off what you want to hear and maybe the distractions you want to tune out. And when you reframe it like that, because there's a lot to just unpack in that. And I just want to thank you for sharing so vulnerably and so openly. Because when you frame it like that, I like what you said, this is for your benefit. You know, your mom says
I don't want to shout at you anymore. How to reframe that into, hey, this is for you. This is your benefit as well, Myles.
Myles Wallace
And I can remember the very first time that I put on hearing aids. I sat in my car and I had grown up playing woodwinds, instruments throughout my entire life. And over this course of time, my hearing had gotten gradually a little bit worse, but I started off playing the flute. And I sat in my car and I'm a big fan of classical music and I turned on the classical radio station and I was able to hear the picolos for the first time. And tears started streaming down my facedidn't quite realize the extent of what I had been missing. And yes, I was complete before then, but I'm enhanced now.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
Wow, that just even what you said there, I'm enhanced now. And, you know, I don't know what you're experiencing or what you've experienced. I know for me living with Crohn's, you know, I have a hard time framing it as I'm enhanced now that I'm missing most of my intestines, but it just makes me who I am. And I think what I'm hearing, Miles, is you now embrace who you are. This is who you are. And that's great.
Myles Wallace
You know, there's so many different people out there in the world. There's so many different experiences. And even two people with the same quote unquote, same disability are going to experience the world so very differently. So I think that what we need to think about is we need to think about how can we reframe and restructure to acknowledge the lived experiences of all of those people and the unique experiences that they bring to the table, because not only do they come to the table with many, many different unique experiences and perspectives and ways that you can be more inclusive as a business, but additionally, they bring in a lot of unique skill sets. The funny thing is that when I worked at Apple for six years without any kind of hearing assistance, I learned to stand a little bit closer. I learned to read body language super well. I learned to watch lips and at the end of the day, too, I also learned to like use the technology around me. Like I'd hand the iPad over to let somebody type out something if I needed them to help out with various different things. But at the end of the day, customers oftentimes felt a stronger connection with me because one, I would often be vulnerable and tell them that, hey, I have hearing loss and stuff. And that's why I'm having trouble hearing you right now but they also would build a stronger connection with me because I am exhibiting those things like making really good eye contact, watching your lips, standing a little bit closer to you. So it has some of those like different tangential benefits. But the other kind of thing that I would say is that from like a perspective sort of situation, I try to be as clear in my communication as possible. So I try to be as clear in my communication as possible and I try to say things from multiple different angles because I realize that people listen differently and people hear differently. And so it's really important that you're able to express yourself in such a way so that people can access the conversation from multiple different angles.
Tim Reitsma
When you said something earlier just about how not, not all disabilities have the same requirement. Not everyone who has hearing loss or everyone who lives with Crohn's or everyone who has arthritis has that same requirement, let's say in this context in the workplace. And...
Do you run into that bias in the workplace and how do you overcome that? Or what advice would you give to organizations in that?
Myles Wallace
There's a lot of different ways to tackle that question. So when it comes to bias and discrimination, those are the big two scary words for businesses. They hear bias, they hear discrimination, they hear lawsuits. And so I think that the Americans with Disabilities Act serves a very important function in that it does protect the rights of people with disabilities, but at the same time, it can also conjure up a lot of fear that people have not only the businesses that may want to hire people with disabilities, but it also may conjure up the fear of people with disabilities themselves as being perceived as different. Something that I'm all about here at Peak Performers is normalization. How can we talk about it in such a way so that it's human, so that's something that you can connect with. However, at the end of the day, there is definitely some biases that are out there. There is discrimination that does happen and it's unfortunate when it does, but it is, and it can be very challenging when you are the person that is victim to that kind of thing. What I happen to see most of the time though is that usually it's a case of misunderstanding. Usually it's a case of unintentional unsensitivity. It's not that people are directly meaning to hurt you. Usually it is a set of circumstances where people say the wrong thing, people act in the wrong way.
Or people might even try to be doing the right thing, but they do the wrong thing by accident I'll give you a classic example. So let's say for example You have a pickup basketball game that's happening out after work And so naturally you don't invite the person who has a motor disability be that somebody that's in a wheelchair for example to that after work activity now, you know, that's
Maybe you're doing that because at the end of the day you don't want them to feel awkward about it You don't want them to feel awkward about showing up and wheeling up and being like, oh, well, you know I'm here to hang out or something. But here's what I would tell all the people that are out there first off Make the leap Try to include people even if you do or say the wrong thing because you don't know that person that's wheeling up in a wheelchair Maybe the best basketball player that you'd ever seen
Myles Wallace
especially for an after work pickup game. You have no idea about that. But then the second thing is that realize, take the lead, because most people are going to be understanding if you say or do the wrong thing. I think where most people get into trouble is where they walk on eggshells around people with disabilities or they are so worried about saying the exact right thing that they don't say anything at all. And that's worse. At the end of the day, we're all going to say the wrong thing. We're all going to do the wrong thing.
So when it comes up back to bias, you know, there are, is definitely situations of bias that do come up, but I like to look at the world as a bit of a Pollyanna. I like to look at it at, yes, there is bias, but most people are trying to do the right thing, trying to say the right thing and do the right thing and to be inclusive, but sometimes they may need a little bit of help from you on exactly how to do that.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, what you're saying really resonates with me. And I've given a few talks on this topic. Often the words that we use, there's really often no ill intent behind it. And so going into a conversation with that lens that we all say the wrong things. We're gonna put our foot in our mouth. We're going to, we might unintentionally offend. That's to me, it's not really an excuse.
However, what that is an opportunity to educate and correct and to be, to step into that with an open mind. But also if, you know, if you're not sure how to communicate, like in your example, after work, a pickup basketball game, just ask. I think it's, you know, like you said, it's that normalization of this. There's still so much fear. So then sometimes we don't even talk. We don't even ask if want to try and include people, but we know there's a disability, whether it's a parent or not a parent, what do we do? Do we just shut down? Do we just not even broach that conversation?
Myles Wallace
Absolutely. Yeah, it's so very common where people will just not include somebody because they think that that's the right thing to do. But when in doubt, you know, just always put yourself out there, too. And the other thing, too, is always seek feedback. So it's OK to ask somebody and say, hey, you know, this is the way that I engaged with you the other day. How did that go for you? I'm trying to get some feedback, trying to be a little bit better. Those are some of the different things that.
you can do and then really take and internalize that feedback. If somebody says, hey, you did the wrong thing, you said the wrong thing, or presented things in a bad way, then really take that heart and try to be better the next time that you engage not only with that person, but engage with other people who might experience similar kinds of situations. And, you know, we talk about this from a perspective of disability, but that's just a human way to do it, right? We talk about the value of diversity, equity, and inclusion.
And that's just a, you know, that's the, that's the golden rule that you can apply for pretty much any situation is, Hey, try to do the right thing. I'll listen to feedback, do better next time.
Tim Reitsma
feedback, a good friend of mine, Matthew Gould, he, he has always, always said and it taught me feedback is a gift. And when, you know, there's an art to giving feedback and asking for feedback, you know, if somebody says, oh, it could have been better. Okay, what about it could have been better? Hey, did I say anything that offended? Yes. You know, if that's where the conversation ends, then, then we need to go a little bit deeper in that. And so, you know, even getting into that practice of asking for feedback.
Myles Wallace
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
It's a skill and it's a learned skill, but a super valuable skill.
Myles Wallace
It absolutely is. So I do, I mentioned that I do board game design and one of the most valuable things that I've learned from doing game design over the years is on a weekly basis, I bring these creations, if you will, to the table and I ask some of my dearest friends to play with them with me and then to provide feedback and tell me exactly what they think. And I get the most nervous when nobody says anything afterwards, right? So that's a, but I've also become very good over the years at being able to hear people say, well, this is really bad or this is, you know, not working or this is not fun. And in my case, it's always better to have feedback than no feedback because if people are not saying anything, then that usually means that it's a dud, it's a failure to start. And then also kind of.
puts the impetus back on me as the designer to be able to say, Hey, so nobody's answering my question. So I'm going to rephrase these questions in a different way, because you might be able to interpret that from the disability angle too, that a lot of people that you're interacting with, the concept of giving feedback about disability inclusion and disability in the workplace, or even disability hiring is so foreign to them, or they so much don't want to say the right, the wrong thing.
Or they so much think that, oh, maybe I should bring this up with HR, you know, that they might even be afraid to engage at a very basic level. So the best thing that you can have is when people begin talking and begin having the conversations. And I would further extrapolate to that. Well not always the case. What I often find is that many instances of wrongful terminations, many instances of grievances at work, many lawsuits and stuff.
from misunderstandings. It can sometimes come from ill will from employers, but a lot of times it comes from misunderstandings. And that's really unfortunate. That breaks my heart that a conversation has broken down at that level that it requires that much intervention.
Tim Reitsma
And when it comes to that place, whether as you said, intervention, whether it's legal or maybe someone has been terminated, it breaks my heart as well. And yet it happens. And so, you know, I just. That's maybe a good segue into disability and disabilities in the workplace. And, you know, I.
Myles Wallace
Sure.
Tim Reitsma
In preparation for this episode and also researching for invisible condition, come across a lot of data that, that still says organizations are afraid to hire people with disabilities. Um, people are afraid because there might be a lot of costs and extra costs or the accommodation or, you know, fill in the blank and yet you're in the business, um, in, in your nonprofit to support people with disabilities to get to find work, to find jobs. How do you reconcile that in organizations?
Myles Wallace
Yeah, it is hard. There's a lot of companies that are afraid to engage with us for those particular reasons, or they might engage with peak performers from the perspective that, oh, this is going to be some niche kind of hiring, whereas they don't really see us as a staffing agency, first and foremost. And that's what we are. We are a staffing agency, particularly a public sector staffing expert and a private sector staffing expert that is nationwide that is here to help clients find great talent. And that's really where the way that I like to recommend that they look at it. But there still is that hesitancy that's out there. And for those people that are expressing hesitation right now, here's what I would tell you. First off, it begins with you. This is not somebody else's job. This is something that begins with you. This is not something that has to be done at a grand level from coming from the CEO and then trickling down to HR and then yada yada. This is something that you can start doing right now by thinking to yourself, oh, I have a person in my workplace and I could talk with them about disabilities. I could disclose my own disability. I could disclose the own challenges that I face in the workplace. I could ask for an accommodation myself. Or if you're a hiring manager, you could be able to say, hey, so I haven't hired somebody with a disability before, but maybe now is a great time to start. Or as I like to correct people, you probably don't realize that you've hired somebody with a disability yet. But there's a lot of hesitation out there. There's a lot of fear out there. And there's a lot of concern that comes up. So just to kind of give you an example, many companies might view hiring people with disabilities as more litigious, for example.
Okay, if I hire this person with a disability to come into the workplace, and then I have to terminate them, then they're going to be more likely to sue me and I'm going to lose a ton of money or something like that. Which is unfortunate that your mind goes there, but you know, be that as the case, time after time that has been proven false. There's a really good Walgreens study that actually proves differently in that case. And then that same study, it also talks a little bit more about
Myles Wallace
safety. So there might be the perception that employers have that, okay, if I have a person with a disability, then they're more likely to have an accident on the job, and they're more likely to cause some kind of big workers' comp situation and or break something. And that's actually not true. You know, many people with disabilities are very aware of their bodies. They're very aware of the limitations that they may have. They know when they need to take a break, and they're able to more carefully safeguard to ensure that accidents don't happen. In fact, most of the time accidents happen when people let their guard down. But there's many other kind of positive attributes, too. So aside from just the negatives, there are so many other positive attributes that I would inform business on, too. There was a new study that was put out by Accenture and Disability in. And you should definitely link to it in your show notes, Tim, giving you a feeler there. But it's a study that has been done over several years right now that talks about the business use case for hiring people with disabilities. And long story short, Disability Inn gets a number of businesses every single year that fills out a survey. It's a very in-depth survey, and it talks a little bit more about, hey, who are you hiring? How are you hiring? How are you including? And how are you handling accommodations for your organization? And then based off the survey results, they select a certain percentile, usually around 30% of those businesses, to be regarded as disability champions. Or in other words, they have a lot of positive things going for their organization that makes it so that somebody is more likely to get hired and more likely to stick around within their organization and be happy doing so as well. And what they found was striking. For example, they found that companies that are disability inclusive hiring champions are more profitable, they bring in more net income, and they're more productive. And I would also add to something that here at Peak Performers, we ourselves have seen, is that when you hire for people with disabilities, your retention rate goes up as well too. Additionally, you often get people that will be more likely to kind of refer their friends because they know that it's a safe space to work. And the final tidbit that I would throw out there as well is that when you recruit for something
Myles Wallace
like a disability, you get a better representation of all the people that are available and out there to work. And since people with disabilities experience an unemployment rate that is doubled out of the national average, oftentimes they are not necessarily the ones that are the first ones called by every single employer, but that doesn't mean that they're not a very qualified, very able workforce that is eager to come and work for you.
Tim Reitsma
I love those, that practical insight, the practical takeaways and just debunking this myth that there is so much risk wrapped around hiring somebody with a disability. And I've read similar studies to the one of Accenture and I'll definitely link that in the show notes where the retention rates go up, your profits go up. Why? Because if we create an inclusive environment where people can show up as themselves and not worry and not hide we're able to work when they're the most productive. Guess what? Those people aren't gonna leave. They're gonna stick around. And I think as employers, if you're listening to this, we need to wrap our heads around that, right? If you create a wonderful environment, let's say you're hosting a dinner party and it is the best dinner party you've ever hosted, your friends are just loving it, comes to like a midnight and you're kicking people out because they don't wanna leave.
Right, you do this in your workplace, you created an environment where people don't wanna leave, they're not going to leave. And so it sounds easy, yet there's still so much fear wrapped in that.
Myles Wallace
Thank you.
Myles Wallace
Absolutely. And it's one of those things. The other thing that businesses tell me too, is that they're not sure where to start. And at the end of the day, it's you start somewhere, you start anywhere, you, and there's a couple of different things. So first off, let's be more specific though, try to give you a little bit more of a road map as opposed to just saying start somewhere. So first off, I would think about how do you hire people with disabilities? That's something that I get asked all the freaking time is how do you find all these people with disabilities? How do you recruit all of them? And the simple answer of it is that they are buried in the rest of the population. And oftentimes they may be like me, they may be like other people with invisible conditions, and they may just not come out and show you, and you may not earn their trust yet.
Um, but, uh, people often ask me like, do you post particular places in order to find people with disabilities? Well, we have certain kinds of strategic partnerships and referral relationships, but by and large, most of our applicants come from applying for the regular jobs that we post on Indeed, on ZipRecruiter and on our website and on LinkedIn. Because guess what?
people with disabilities are everywhere. A quarter of the US population has a disability of some way, shape, or form, but only 4% of people actually tell their boss that they have a condition. So that's the first thing to wrap your head around is just understand that you probably already have people with disabilities working for you right now. You already do. Um, but then the second thing is think about how can I be more inclusive when it comes to actually recruiting people? So.
There's a lot of different things that we can kind of dig into right here But let me just give you kind of a couple of examples the first thing that I would tell you is that you want to rethink about what a Good hire looks like you need to rethink that fundamentally Because there's a lot of people for example that may exhibit traits that would normally disqualify them out of the hiring process Let's start with the resume just to start off with something. Okay, so
Myles Wallace
I have been told by exactly two people this year that have successfully battled cancer and they said, Miles, having cancer absolutely sucked. It took everything out of me. But I can tell you that it was harder finding a job after having had cancer than it was battling cancer itself. And what does that say about the world, right? What does that say about the freaking world? So career gaps are a very big thing that you can look for. While we oftentimes may be inclined to just assume that maybe somebody's been sitting on their butt for the last three years and stuff, maybe they've been traveling the world or doing something, you know, I don't know, but they aren't working. So, you know, why would I want to hire them? Well, career gaps are very common for people with disabilities, whether for mental conditions that they experience or physical conditions or injuries that they may incur. And a lot of times it's not their own fault. So the first thing that you can do is look past that bias that you have around hiring somebody who has a career gap. The second thing that I would tell you too is that this goes back to that kind of perception of like what makes a good worker. So a lot of people with disabilities that I meet oftentimes have pretty choppy looking resumes and they're perceived as job hoppers, right? Because they work six months here, they work four months here, then a year there, and then they're back to four months over here at the next occupation.
And employers see that and they say, well, obviously, like, they're not going to stick around with me. They're not going to really want to work here a long time. They're a job hopper. And, you know, that's almost a dirty word, but many times when you see people that are hopping around between different jobs, it's because they can't find a place where they're comfortable. They can't find a place that they are, feel comfortable asking for what it is that they need to be successful. And so they just move on.
They just move on and that to me is a tragedy that you lost a good employee and they have moved on from your organization just because they didn't trust you enough to really come out and ask for what they need to be successful. And speaking of which, let's talk about kind of the next piece of that. So when we are going through the interviews, there's many perceptions that we have about what makes a person a good interviewer and what makes a person that's more likely to be a good candidate for a long-term fit for this job. And I can tell you from personal experience that oftentimes the most charismatic people are the ones that get the jobs, regardless if their job actually involves customer-facing situations or public speaking situations, whatever. In fact, most jobs don't require that. Most jobs do not require that, but oftentimes the most charismatic person and the best interviewer is going to get the job. But there might be a person with autism that feels uncomfortable shaking your hand, or they might not be able to look you in the eye, or there might be somebody that has a chronic health condition and they're worried about showing up for a in-person interview, let alone taking their mask off during that interview. And we may often have perceptions against those people and regard them as weird or a little bit off, but again, are they any less qualified to do the job? I don't think so.
The final bit that I would throw in is that we need to rethink about how we're talking about accommodations, because a lot of times when we think about accommodations, we were thinking about it from the perspective of a process. And you've heard me say it several times here before, but what you need to be thinking about it is what do you need to be successful? And as a manager, you can come and you can use those exact words. You have my permission. Please do use those words and ask your people, what is it that you need to be successful?
Tim Reitsma
Yeah.
Myles Wallace
because that takes so much of the stigma away from it. That takes so much of the shame that might be attached to it away from it. And it really enables people to ask for a range of accommodations because accommodations, you know, I don't know if you knew this, Tim, but the Department of Labor recently released a study that said that over 50% of accommodations cost nothing. Nothing, $0 and 30% actually have a one-time fixed cost of $50.
$300 or less and when you consider the fact that According to Society for Human Resource Management the average cost per hire is over $14,000 in the United States 300 bucks is nothing Absolutely, not
Tim Reitsma
It's, it is nothing. I love that you brought, wrapped this up with accommodation because it's twofold. One is creating an environment where somebody feels safe enough to ask for an accommodation. And I would say even, even demonstrate how you've offered accommodations in the past. Here's some examples that we offer. We invite you to ask for that accommodation, but then also the person who's, who's needs the accommodation, you got to being bold and saying, this is what I'm going to need to perform in this role, or this is what I need for my condition. And I wanna flip it just, you know, as we're wrapping up here, but I wanna flip it just to that job seeker. I've been a job seeker. I've been fearful of discrimination. I've been fearful of, okay, do I tell somebody in an interview that, hey, I might need to pause and run to the washroom? Because I live with Crohn's. It just goes hand in hand.
Myles Wallace
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
People don't wanna hear it, people don't wanna talk about it. I don't wanna make people feel uncomfortable, but it's just something that I might need. And so I'm curious from your perspective, from a job seeker, when you are sitting down for that interview, how do you show up? How do you coach someone to show up for that?
Myles Wallace
first thing is always to show up. I have two mantras in life and that's always follow up and always show up. And really, if you can do that, you are going to stand above so many other job seekers with or without disabilities. So that's the very first thing. But taking it beyond that most basic level.
Coming out and sharing with the world that you have a disability can be a very uncomfortable experience, especially if you have experienced discrimination in the past, especially if you've experienced wrongful terminations in the past. Yeah, and so the challenge with it is that a lot of times you have to approach each new employer with a fresh set of eyes, and you have to assume that they're a good person that wants to do the right thing, even if you yourself have...
experienced bad situations previously. So you have to look at it and you have to assume that most people are good people that want to help you out, that want to hire you, that want to do a good job, but maybe there needs to be some things that need to be overcome. So when it comes to actually coming out about your disability, and by the way, if you have a disability, while it is a very personal decision, I would encourage you to think about coming out. I would encourage you to think about actually disclosing your disability. And then the question becomes, when do I do that? I wouldn't do it on your resume. I wouldn't slap a big label right there that says I am disabled and stick it on your resume. No, that's probably not a great idea. But what I would think about doing is, when can I get to a point where I've built rapport and trust with the hiring manager? When have I looked them in the eyes? When do I know that I am close to being offered the job or have already been offered the job?
And now is a good opportunity for me to really come to the table and ask for what I need to be successful. And furthermore, unfortunately, the onus of accommodations oftentimes is put on the person with a disability. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. But here's what I would tell you is that if you can come to the table and have a solution ready to go, a lot of times the employer is very ready to say yes.
Myles Wallace
especially if you know how to frame it, especially if you know how to really present it in a way that is not a big deal. Again, you shouldn't have to feel compelled to present it this way, but that's kind of the way that the world works right now and that's how I find you're going to be the most successful. So there's a couple of resources that I would recommend. You can start with AskJan.org.
That is a fantastic resource for you to go and research the range of different accommodations that are out there and what other people with a similar disability to yours have asked for previously in order to be the most successful that they can be. So that's a fantastic resource for you. But then the other part of it too, let's say for example you've been living with a mental health diagnosis now for the last two years but you have your medications under control and you are taking regular therapy and you're good, you know, you're good, you're groovy, man. Well, I would still think about maybe coming out and actually telling your employer that you have a disability. And here's why. For the first reason is that you are oftentimes going to enable other people around you to come out and ask for what they need to be successful. Many, you are going to become a leader in the disability movement simply by disclosing the own disabilities experiences that you have had in the past. And, you know, you can't necessarily delegate disability disclosure. A lot of times it comes from the people that are all around you that are willing to talk about their lived experience. So that's the first altruistic reason. And the second one is more selfish. And I think that it just is important, though. Bodies change, minds change, disability changes, and your accommodations need change.
And many times where I see people get into trouble is where they start off working for a company and they're doing great. And then all of a sudden things happen, whether that's a personal life event, or it's a change in medication, their bodies change, whatever. And then all of a sudden they find it where it's difficult to fulfill the basic elements of the job as they were doing previously and
Myles Wallace
The biggest thing that employers don't like to see is they don't like to be surprised. So as much as possible, you want to really avoid situations where you're going to surprise your employer. And again, the onus shouldn't be on you, but a lot of times it is. So think about not only your current self and present self, but think about future miles, future Tim, how can I look out for the future me and make sure that I'm going to have everything that I need to be successful and to stay working.
Tim Reitsma
So much just packed right in there. So much insight and wisdom, Miles. I just love your passion for this space. You know, there's a couple of things that really have stood out to me, which is vulnerability. And I recorded a podcast recently, it's gonna come out in a couple of weeks and it's titled Vulnerability Build Vulnerability. Disclosing in your organization that, hey, I have a disability with your HR team, with your team, with your manager. It builds rapport with others and it breaks down those invisible barriers and that invisible that visible and invisible stigma that surrounds our invisible conditions. Love that. I love also that we talk about that trust and rapport, you know, asking for what we need to be successful. Hey, I have regular doctor's appointments. They typically happen in the afternoons. I schedule them for late in the day, but I will come in early those days and make up that time.
You know, your manager or your boss will say, okay, that sounds good. Instead of saying, hey, what do you want me to do? I have a doctor's appointment. And you now leave it for your manager to figure that out. But providing them saying, hey, this is what I need. I recently had a conversation with a young guy who has battles, mental health, illness, and he's good. As you said, he's groovy. He's on his medication, he's good.
Myles Wallace
Right.
Tim Reitsma
He really wants to tell his story and he's gonna be coming up on the podcast early next year, but he's afraid of being discriminated against. And he've said that to me and I said, well, it's your story, you know, it's your story to share. What makes you wanna share your story? And he said, if it helps just one person, that's what matters to me most. And I don't wanna work for somebody who's gonna discriminate against me anyways. And you don't.
Myles Wallace
You don't want to work for them anyway. Yeah, no, we frame it like you're losing a job, but maybe it's the best situation for you to find an employer that's going to be more respectful and understanding of your needs.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
Absolutely. And, and so, you know, we could go off, I don't think this is going to be our last conversation, because even in this one 45 minute episode, we have crammed in a lot. And I think that there could be three or four different other episodes out of this. And so, if you if you're listening, and this really strikes a nerve with you or piques your interest and no pun intended with peak performers.
Miles, where can people reach you? How can people get a hold of you to learn more?
Myles Wallace
Absolutely. I am eager to connect with job seekers. I'm eager to connect with businesses. I'm also eager to connect with community partners that are working with job seekers with disabilities too. So you name it, you know, this is a group effort. We got a, let's get them hired. Let's, let's find them jobs. And that is something that I'm very personally passionate about and happy to engage with you on. Find me on LinkedIn. My name is Miles with a Y M Y L E S Wallace and you can connect with me there. Let's schedule some time to chat a little bit more. And also if you are looking for a job, I'd encourage you to check out our website, peakperformers.org. That's where you can find all the different jobs that we have open right now. We are committed to providing people with professional opportunities. So you're gonna find everything from like administrative assistants to accountants to IT project managers to engineers.
All the way over to job developers and everything in between. We've got a ton of different opportunities and while we are headquartered out of Austin, Texas, we are nationwide across the US, not in Canada yet. We're working on it, Tim. So we'll try to get there. And if you are a business that wants to talk about this a little bit more, but are a little bit afraid to do so, a great next step is chatting with me. We can have a conversation. We can see how it might be able to fit in with your goals. And who knows, maybe, you know, even if peak performers is not a fit for hiring people with disabilities, I might be able to give you a couple of tips so that you can hire your first person with a disability.
Tim Reitsma
That's fantastic. Yeah. And that's a big, uh, a big challenge to all those business owners who are listening, all those HR, uh, people, managers who are listening, here's a call to action for you is stop being afraid to hire somebody with a disability, whether it's visible or invisible. People, if you have an environment that people want to be at, uh, people with disabilities and the numbers prove it. We'll link to all, we'll link to the reports in the show notes. So the numbers support it.
That people with disabilities will help you in your, if you're looking at your bottom line, your profitability, your revenue, your retention rates, and it's not gonna cost you anything. At most on average, maybe $300, but it may be, but that hardly costs anything. And so let's stop being afraid to hire people with disabilities. That's where I'm getting to. So Miles, thank you so much for joining the Invisible Condition podcast today.
Myles Wallace
Maybe. Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
I've learned a lot. I know our listeners are gonna learn a lot and I really appreciate you coming on.
Myles Wallace
You're quite welcome, Tim. Thanks so much for having me.
Tim Reitsma
And for all those who are listening, what really helps the show is to subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also follow us on Instagram and bookmark the website. We have more and more resources coming out in the days and weeks to come. So with that, I just thank you for joining me today. And with that, I hope you have an amazing day.
