Ep: 015 - Courage to Advocate: How to Effectively Disagree - Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen - Bio
Maureen Michele Petersen, MD is an award-winning leader, life coach, author, and physician. As a general pediatrician and allergist/immunologist, she has spent her career caring for patients with a variety of acute and chronic health problems.
She is a military veteran and has enjoyed using her story-telling talent to teach young physicians the art of medicine. She is an accomplished life coach who helps parents of chronically ill children regain control of their lives and thrive at fulfillment.
Maureen is the mother of three amazing children and has first-hand experience with being a parent of a child with long-term health issues. Maureen enjoys jumping rope, hiking, and playtime with her two extraordinary four-legged sidekicks!
Contact Links:
Email: maureen@maureenmichelemd.com
Website: https://maureenmichelemd.com
Instagram: @maureenmichelemd
“Advocacy as an argument, which is right where our brains go when we’re talking about advocating, that doesn’t need to be an argument.”
Definitions:
What Is Neuroblastoma?
kidshealth.org - Neuroblastoma is a type of cancer that starts in early nerve cells called neuroblasts. Normally, these immature cells grow into working nerve cells. But in neuroblastoma (nur-oh-bla-STOW-muh), they grow uncontrollably and become cancer cells that form a solid tumor.
Type 1 diabetes - a disease in which the pancreas does not produce any insulin. Insulin is an important hormone that helps your body to control the level of glucose (sugar) in your blood. Roughly 10% of people living with diabetes have type 1, insulin-dependent diabetes. Type 1 diabetes generally develops in childhood or adolescence, but can also develop in adulthood. People with type 1 need to inject insulin or use an insulin pump to ensure their bodies have the right amount of insulin.
Summary:
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen discusses her book 'Reclaiming Life, A Guide for Parents of Chronically Ill Children' and the motivation behind writing it. She shares her personal experiences as a mother advocating for her chronically ill child and the importance of effectively disagreeing with medical professionals. We talk about advocacy and how to get curious when a patient isn’t confident with what the doctor is saying.
Dr. Petersen emphasizes the need for curiosity, honesty, and asking for help in order to navigate the challenges of caregiving.
She also highlights the power of journaling, gratitude, and exercise in maintaining mental and emotional well-being. The conversation concludes with a discussion on ending the stigma surrounding invisible conditions.
Takeaways
Emotional Healing Through Writing: Dr. Petersen discusses the therapeutic process of writing her book and how documenting her family's journey provided significant emotional healing for herself, and aims to assist others going through similar experiences.
Advocating for a Chronically Ill Child: Dr. Petersen emphasizes the importance of advocacy in the healthcare setting, sharing her insights as both a physician and a parent. She offers valuable advice on how to communicate effectively with medical professionals without entering conversations as confrontations but rather as collaborative discussions. Disagreements with medical professionals can be approached as conversations rather than battles, fostering trust and partnership. Advocacy requires courage and curiosity, both for parents advocating for their children and patients advocating for themselves.
The Power of Emotional Control: We discuss the significance of managing emotions when advocating for a loved one. Dr. Petersen reflects on her experiences and stresses the importance of approaching situations with curiosity and an open mind to facilitate constructive dialogue.
Asking for and Accepting Help: A key theme is the challenge caregivers face in asking for help. Dr. Petersen discusses the importance of acknowledging when support is needed and how accepting help can be a strength, not a weakness. This also allows others the opportunity to contribute positively to your journey.
Personal Growth and Resilience: Dr. Petersen shares her journey towards personal growth and resilience, learned through the challenges of her daughter's health issues. She talks about the importance of self-care, including maintaining a morning routine, journaling, and exercising, to manage stress and avoid feeling overwhelmed.
Ending the Stigma Around Invisible Conditions: The conversation concludes with thoughts on reducing the stigma associated with invisible conditions. Dr. Petersen advocates for curiosity, courage, and compassion to foster understanding and support for individuals and families dealing with chronic illnesses.
This episode offers a profound look into the complexities of caring for someone with a chronic illness, providing practical advice, emotional support, and encouragement for caregivers to advocate effectively and take care of themselves in the process.
“The amount of emotional healing that went on by putting all of these words to paper was huge.”
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and Background
03:14 The Courage to Advocate and Disagree
07:16 Advocating for a Child with Cancer
11:43 Approaching Disagreements with Curiosity
18:55 The Power of Honesty and Asking for Help
30:28 The Lie of 'I'm Fine'
36:05 Navigating Overwhelm and Self-Care
51:47 Ending the Stigma of Invisible Conditions
54:46 Conclusion and Contact Information
Transcript
Tim Reitsma
Dr. Maureen, Michelle, thank you so much for joining. But before we get into an intro, you sent me a copy of your book and I'm very grateful for that. Your book is called, "'Reclaiming Life, A Guide for Parents "'of Chronically Ill Children.'" And while I don't have a chronically ill child, a lot of what you wrote resonated with me. But before we get into that, what made you sit down and write a book?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
So Tim, like first, thank you for allowing me to have this conversation with you. I appreciate the opportunity to share my story and some tips with your audience. Um, and so it's funny that you ask about why did I write this book? Because, um, when I had the idea of writing a book, uh, it was really because my kids had asked me.
Mom, tell us a story of what happened when Kylie was sick with cancer or tell us what happened when she got diabetes. So it was a project to put down in history what happened when all of these things were occurring in my family. As time went on though, I realized that the stories could really help others. And the purpose of the book changed to where it was a project to really help make others who were going through a similar journey a little bit easier than the one that I went through. But when the book was finished, when I wrote that last sentence of the book, I closed my laptop and just started to cry because the amount of emotional healing that went on by putting all of these words to paper was huge. And I realized that it had really helped me in addition to being able to be a resource to help others.
Tim Reitsma
I love that. And the last sentence of the book, it's a powerful one at that. We absolutely have control over how we feel and the, that ultimately results in a masterpiece. I love that. And you know, for anyone who's, who's interested, yeah, I encourage you to grab the book. We'll have all the links in the show notes and I feel like we're jumping ahead in our conversation. But like I said, I couldn't put it down and it's all marked up and I love just taking a pencil to, to a book.
And a lot of, wrote a lot, and a lot of it resonated with me. And, you know, when you and your assistant first reached out and was like, hey, here's a couple angles we could talk about, the one that resonated with me, the courage to advocate, how to effectively disagree. We'll talk a little bit about your daughter and her battle with cancer as a baby. And I'm really curious, you know, that topic, caught my attention because of a few different things. Like, yes, how to effectively disagree. I think we all need some help there, but you're a doctor yourself. And so I'm like, oh, that's an interesting perspective is here's a doctor coming on the Invisible Condition podcast who's gonna tell us how to effectively disagree with potentially other doctors. So, yeah.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
with doctors. Right.
Yeah. And you know, that, that topic for me is so important because I have been on the physician side of things where I have witnessed patients having trouble just asking me questions and leaving my office with a full understanding of what was going on with them. Not because of anything I was doing, but they just came into it like feeling intimidated because a lot of people in their minds put doctors on a pedestal and don't go into this appointment as being equal to the individual who is a partner in their treatment plan. So having witnessed that as a physician, I knew it was an important topic, but I also knew it was important because I, after my daughter got sick, a lot of people said to me, Maureen, I'm sure it was easy to advocate for her because you're a doctor. You know how to do it. And that's exactly why it was hard to advocate for her because I was
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
um, going to these appointments because I didn't want to upset anybody and didn't want, um, a colleague to think bad of me if I voiced an opinion that was different than theirs. And so this topic was important to discuss for both sides for, from the physician side and having people understand that physicians really want to have conversations when we're creating treatment plans, but patients also need the permission to really have those conversations with other human beings that may have a lot of knowledge about medical stuff, but they're still human beings with good days and bad days. They're still human beings who make times. So it was a topic that I felt like I did live on both sides of the coin and could really participate in the conversation of helping people really know how to hone that skill.
Tim Reitsma
And it is a skill. It's who you talk about in the book, fear and guilt and all the emotions that we, we are often, and I'm generalizing for myself that I'm overcome with, right? You, you're sitting in the doctor's office, you, you get some news, maybe that you weren't expecting and don't necessarily at, in the moment know how to respond.
And just because you leave that doctor's office doesn't mean it's one and done. You can't ever ask a question again. It's I'm, I'm guilty of this. Maybe I shouldn't use the word guilty, but I'm known for this where I might go home and have three questions. I'll phone up the doctor's office and say, sorry, I didn't ask these questions in the moment, but I need answers to these. And, and if I don't hear back, I will phone back and say, Hey, I need answers to these. So, so I love that. But, uh, you know, I, I would love to start at the beginning and with your daughter. And I'm sure you didn't wake up and after giving birth to this beautiful baby girl to think that you were now going to have to be her advocate. She was too small to advocate for herself. What was going on with you? What was going through your mind when you first got the diagnosis of cancer?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Well, you know, as I look back on that time, so it was during my pediatric residency, my daughter was my second child and was an infant. When we got the diagnosis, she had pediatric neuroblastoma, a type of cancer of the adrenal gland after they felt a lump in her belly. And my whole world kind of came crashing in during that time. I had taken care of patients who had the same diagnosis.
So I knew what it meant and my brain was like off to the races thinking about every possibility that was going to go wrong during her treatment. I focused all of my attention on her did the best I could at the time, but if my present self could go back to the past, I would do it so much differently, because I have gained some wisdom along the way, right? During that time, that advocacy that I did for her was really done from this place of fear and desperation where I felt like I needed to speak up because you're right, she was an infant and she didn't have a voice at the time. I was her only voice. The years later when she was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, I became very proactive in taking care of my own emotional health because I knew that I didn't do it well previously when she was an infant with cancer. And when she had diabetes, I knew that wasn't going away, that there's no cure for type one. So I was going to have to live as...
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
a mom to a kid who has type one diabetes for the rest of my life. So I was going to have to figure out how to be the best person I could be in order to be the best mom for her. And it was through that journey that I really understood about how to advocate for your child in a way that doesn't advocacy as an argument, which is right where our brains go to when we're talking about advocating, that it doesn't need to be an argument. And, you know, when we think immediately that we're going to have an argument, we down our battle armour before we even enter the clinic exam room, and we are ready to like fight the good fight.
And that's not the way to approach advocacy. It's not the way to approach any sort of disagreement that you have in your life. Like don't go in ready for battle. Go in with curiosity. Yeah, you know what your position is, but when you go in with a little bit more of an open mind in an organized way that is less emotional, then the outcome becomes more of a conversation rather than a battle.
Tim Reitsma
Oh, I love that. Rather than a battle, as soon as you're talking about that emotion of you're going into a medical appointment, whether it's for yourself or the person in your care, and you're gonna advocate, it's like the gloves are off, we're gonna go, we're gonna battle this out. And at least for me, when I've done that in the past, you skip over, I've skipped over a lot of what the doctor's saying because I just want my point to be heard. And so it's that checking of that emotion. But I can imagine when your daughter, you know, is battling cancer and then her diagnosis of diabetes, checking that emotion, it's easier when you can reflect back to say, oh, I should have checked my emotion, than checking it in the moment. What, how did you kind of reframe yourself or rewire your brain to say, okay, I know that I can have an emotional response. So take a pause. What did you do to reset yourself so you're not going in as, you know, Dr. Marie, this is my child I know best and I'm gonna disagree with you versus, hey, tell me more about this.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Right. Well, and so, you know, I talk about this now because I didn't do it well before. And, um, I talk about it like, Oh, this is easy. Like you go in and it's not a battle. It's a conversation and you're curious. And yeah, that, that is all true that you do those things, but it takes practice. It is just like anything else in life.
You know, when somebody first picks up a musical instrument and starts to play, they're not going to be somebody who is joining an orchestra right off the bat. Like you have to practice to get to the level of the ability to join the orchestra. The same thing goes with advocacy and, um, emotional control it starts with awareness and it's practicing awareness that allows you then in the moment to really have control over your emotions. But it's also, and I tell this story in the book that when my daughter had diabetes, I was actually the physician who diagnosed her with it. And...
We go to the emergency room and in the emergency room, the ER doctor says, I want an X-ray because I think she has pneumonia. And I had practiced pediatrics for years by that point in time. Like I didn't say anything about a cough. I didn't say anything about a fever. Like I didn't say anything that would lead to the worry about pneumonia.
So I also knew as her mom that she had lots of exposure to radiation in the past because of her history of neuroblastoma. So I wanted so desperately in that moment to be able to say like, no, she doesn't need this x-ray. And I questioned him and asked like, x-ray, why do you want an x-ray?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
and what's making you think about pneumonia? And he rattles off, well, you know, sometimes when the blood sugar's high, it can present as pneumonia. And I, in that moment, my mind said, well, I have to work with him in the future. I don't wanna upset him. I don't wanna make him feel ashamed that he is thinking about this X-ray. I guess I'll just go along with it.
And I did, I let my daughter get the X-ray, which I will say is fine. The amount of radiation exposure from an X-ray is really pretty small. But I beat myself up about it for months afterwards, because I would have loved to have been able to stand up for my daughter in that moment, instead of worrying about all of these other things that were created by thoughts that were going on in my mind that was giving me this emotion in the moment that I couldn't stand up and have this voice for my daughter. And so a lot of folks have said when I've told that story, well, what could you have done, really? And, you know, again, like my present self, if I went back in that moment, it's approaching it with curiosity, like I tried to, why do you want this x-ray? What's making you worry about pneumonia? Are appropriate questions to keep the conversation non-emotional and keep it from a place of curiosity. But then if I really wasn't getting the answers that I was expecting, I could have said to him, you know what, I get it, you think she has pneumonia, I really don't think she does, do you mind if you grab your colleague to be the tiebreaker? And again, that like takes away the emotion and allows me to still act like mom and not doctor, but...
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
It's getting another opinion in the moment. And physicians don't mind second opinions. Confident physicians really don't mind second opinions because if they are confident in the medical things that they are telling you, then they know somebody else is gonna tell you the same exact thing. It's when somebody, isn't confident in what they're saying, that they start getting bothered by second opinions. So noticing that when folks are dealing with medical professionals is just interesting. So yes, I would play the scenario with the ER doc quite differently, but I also really learned that you can't keep blaming and shaming yourself for something that you did. It is learn from that and move on. Move on with knowledge to have you do it better in the future, but don't keep beating yourself up about it because that gets you nowhere.
Tim Reitsma
You're absolutely right. It gets you nowhere. If you get stuck in that cycle of guilt and you wrote a chapter about that emotion as well, you get stuck in that cycle, then how can you advocate for yourself or the one in your care even better and better? And you know, you wrote, you talked a lot about curiosity. It's like, you wrote, be fascinated. Be fascinated. Tell me more. Okay. You think I need that test.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yeah
Tim Reitsma
I've never heard of that test or something's not sitting right with me. Tell me more about it. What is the outcome? What are we trying to get to? What are we trying to achieve here? You know, I was sick. I was now it's, it's arthritis and it's when I battling a Crohn's flare. I live with Crohn's disease. Arthritis shows up in my left knee. Don't know why, but it's always my left. And remember the first time it happened, my knee was, it was about three, four times the size as it should be. And I went to the hospital and the doctor said, Oh, uh, we don't know what it is, but so we're just going to give you some antibiotics. And I think about it now of thinking, I should have asked questions. Well, if we don't know what it is, why are you giving me antibiotics? If everything else turns out to be fine, why am I getting this really high dose of these exceptionally harsh antibiotics that I need to go to the hospital for twice a day now, which did absolutely nothing for me. But it's, I didn't know how to, I just thought, okay, I guess that's the best until I had another doctor come in and say, no, we're not doing this. This is not the treatment for you. So I think, you know, for those who are listening, whether you live with something that's invisible or visible, or you're caring for someone, it's okay to disagree. And from as a physician.
I don't agree with you. How would you handle that?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
I would use my own words that you just quoted and say, tell me more, like, tell me a little bit about what are you feeling? What are you thinking? And you know, as a physician, I do not feel bad if I don't know something. If a patient asks me a question and I don't know the answer always taught residents and interns and fellows, do not try to kind of muddle your way through a made up answer. Just say, I don't know, but I will find out for you. And people trust when you say that, because it's building a relationship and
As a physician, I go back to, we're still human. No doctor is gonna know every single thing about every piece of medicine. Like, you can't, there's just too much science out there. And science is evolving at a rapid speed. Trying to keep up with all of it is hard. But I then take that question and I do go look it up and get an answer back to the patient. So, you know, what you're saying about like being fascinated, it goes back to like if a doctor was saying you need these antibiotics for your swollen knee, again, it doesn't have to be an argument. It can just be like, I hear what you're saying. Can you explain to me?
Just a little bit more about these antibiotics. Like, what do they do? What are we trying to treat? And by allowing the doctor to explain it, it really helps this building of trust that goes on to be a partnership in medicine because that's what medicine truly is, is a partnership. I can tell my patients what to do
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
until I'm blue in the face. But if they're gonna go home and not do it because they don't trust me, then I have just wasted all of my time and energy. So I would rather have these conversations so that we're on the same page.
Tim Reitsma
Mm-hmm. You said something earlier that really I've wrote down, confident physicians are okay with a second opinion. And I was thinking back to just even your stories of your daughter in the hospital and asking for that second opinion. And you wrote the story of your daughter had surgery, a very complex surgery. And I think it's called a control line. Is that what it's?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Central line, central line, yep, yep.
Tim Reitsma
a central line, yeah, a central line. And the doctor said, no, we don't need it. And it turned out that, you know, she then was potentially to have to go back for another surgery because it was, no, we don't need it, but yet needed it, she needed it. And so, you know, it's, you know, we could get hung up on that. Okay, I was right, you're wrong, doctor. And I think that as a patient all the time, it's like, oh, I know better. Dr. Google told me.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
She did. Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
You know, I have like 16 different variations of something that, um, you know, Google's telling me when you, when you are right and do you ever have, you can't go into specifics, but patients then say, I'm right, you're wrong. And, and from a medical perspective, how do you respond to that?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
If you're asking if a patient is like, I'm right, doc, you are wrong. Well, it's, again, making sure that I truly understand why they think that they are right. And if it was that I made a mistake, I will say I made a mistake. I am not perfect. I try my best.
Tim Reitsma
Mm-hmm
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
And, but ultimately my goal is to have the best care for the patient, whether that be the adult or the child, whoever it is that I'm taking care of needs the best care. And if I made a mistake and disrupted that trust and they want to see another physician, then I will help them.
Tim Reitsma
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
see another physician because the goal for everyone should be the best care possible. So if I have done something to disrupt that trust because I'm human, I will try my best next time not to make the same mistake, but I don't want it to disrupt the care of the patient. And that's what everybody needs to focus on. So you know, that...
Tim Reitsma
Yeah.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
This again, like, can apply to anything in life, right? An argument with a spouse is the same kind of thing. Like, I'm right, you're wrong. Like, ultimately, does it matter? No, not really. And we have to really practice letting go and forgiving, because those emotions of anger, really keep us stuck and don't allow us to move on to repair a mistake that has happened in some sort of disagreement.
Tim Reitsma
you're so spot on, we're human. We are going to make mistakes. And if you're listening to this and you think, I never make mistakes, well, that is a mistake because you will make a mistake. We all make mistakes, whether you are someone who is, you know, on a production line in a factory or you're a medical practitioner like yourself, doesn't matter. I host a podcast, I make mistakes all the time. We all make mistakes and it's how we react.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Right.
Tim Reitsma
to those mistakes and that really defines our character and how we react, but how we overcome those mistakes as well. And so, you know, you alluded to one of the stories, even this doctor says your daughter needs a chest X-ray and you're like, no. And you didn't write in the book after the X-ray came back. It's like, ha, I told you so. It's okay, you did the X-ray. I carried a little bit of guilt. I should have advocated a little differently. I will do that next time.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yes.
Tim Reitsma
And move on. We have to move on. Yeah.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Right, right. And it's the, you know, that anger that is really keeping us stuck on, we have to be right all the time. And it goes back to what you just said, like we're all humans, we make mistakes. It's reacting, but it's also learning from the mistake. So, you know, our character comes from how we manage life after we've made a mistake. But then what are we doing to really put a safety net in place so that we can help prevent it from happening again?
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, it's, we talk about resilience as a big theme through the book. And part of resilience is then being able to, once you get through that situation, that medical condition, whatever your situation is and look back and go, okay, what have I learned? What could I have done differently? So the next time it happens, you now have an arsenal of tools. So if you feel that emotion rising up in you, you know, how to handle it differently. If you, if somebody says something and you're like, I think you're wrong. You know how to handle that. So nobody likes to be say, I could sit here and say, you're wrong in this book and let me tell you why. And I took half an hour of telling you why. You'd be like, I think I'm gonna leave the podcast now. Like, I don't think this is adding any value to anyone, which I wouldn't because yeah, I've already recommended this book to a few people. My sister has two children with type one diabetes. And so I sent it to her. I sent her a link to go buy it yesterday and said,
I think a lot of this will resonate with her as a mom, advocating for two young children who they live in a remote part of where we live in British Columbia, who don't have good access to healthcare. And so you have to advocate. And so I'm gonna get her a copy and we're gonna have a debrief about it. But I wanna change directions just a little bit. There's a few other things that really caught my attention in the book. How are you doing? I'm fine.
And you called it something I've never heard of it being called before. A lie. It's a lie. And not just like, Oh, just goes like, Oh shoot. I'm a liar.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Lie. Yes.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yeah, we, you know, parents who have, um, kids with health issues become really good at lying and you know, it's, uh, we often think of lying as something that's not true and we know it's not true, but we do or say it anyways, right? But really the lie of you know, I'm fine, I'm fine, is this lie to ourselves. And we're not being honest with ourselves. So sometimes we don't even realize that it's truly a lie that because we're thinking that we're, you know, doing all the motions that we're supposed to be doing to get through life and to have a good day.
Um, the, but it's hard and being vulnerable and real is really courageous, uh, and adds to this challenge of, um, all of these other challenges that we have to accomplish in the day. So instead of being vulnerable, we just go about it in this rhythmic way and tell everybody how fine we are.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, yeah, I've, I think I used that a few times today already and I'm fine. I'm feeling good. I'm feeling great. But you know, even before we hit the record, it's like, how are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm fine. And then I was like, oh, but am I? Yes, I am. Okay, good, I didn't lie. It's a, I'm a terrible liar. I would have been a tell, you know, probably would have broke down crying. But you're absolutely right. I think, you know, as a caregiver, my wife lives with ankylosing spondylitis and I've been on that caregiver side where, you know, recently her part of her arthritis shows up as iritis inflammation in her eye where she can't drive and met medical appointment after medical appointment. And how are you doing, Tim? I'm fine. Right. It's just like that. You know, this is my critical path right now is to, is to care for my wife, care for my family and get stuff done. And so don't disrupt that because I have no time for conversation.
However, when we become honest, just like you did in the book, right? It's the support, the lasagnas as you wrote in the book, the lasagna, that basket of lasagna and all the cutlery just showed up. It's so, so important. So if somebody is stuck in that, and because there's a lot of emotion in that, what advice would you give someone?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yes.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Well, you know, I would first say, when I was listening to you just talk about how your wife, you know, when she can't drive, that she's like, I'm fine. You know, as an individual who is observing somebody say, I'm fine, and you know they're really not, I would say it's important to say to them, hey, look, I totally get that you don't want to talk about this right now, or you're not ready to talk about it, but I think life is a little more difficult than what you're leading on. And I'm here for you when you want to chat about it. So just that acknowledgement that they are being seen and heard in a moment that they know they're not fine, they just don't want to really admit it to themselves can be really, really helpful. Like I said, being the person who is having this kind of lie go out to the world saying, I'm fine, I'm fine, it takes a lot of courage to stop portraying this attitude that everything's okay when everything is not. Because the way to really make things better is to take the first step and admit that it isn't good. And when you really get real and can admit, hey, it's not good, okay.
That can be the starting point on my map on where I'm starting at, so that now I can set my path and can head off to when I know it is really fine. But I have to start somewhere. And so putting that peg on the map means being courageous and saying, okay, life is really tough right now. But it's courage
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
you need in order to do that.
Tim Reitsma
It's trying to navigate on your own. You know, I can't imagine holding this little infant who needs to go for surgery for, for cancer treatments and saying everything's fine when you know it's not. And how did you navigate that emotion where people are asking you, right? You're in your residency, you're starting off in your new career and you're being a mom to two children juggling so much. At what point did you say, okay, I need help. And what kind of help showed up?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yeah, so I would say, you know, back when Kylie had neuroblastoma, like, I don't think I did it well. I tried my best and really allowed the focus of her health care to really kind of consume me. I tried my best to balance being a mom to another kid.
And going back to work and having a career in medicine. And it really, like, I was very lucky because I was surrounded by a community of physicians who could recognize when things weren't fine and be able to be there to be supportive. But things got better with time and the further we got away from her cancer diagnosis. I did it differently when she had diabetes because I learned that what I did before with when she was going through her cancer journey wasn't the best for me, which meant if I wasn't at my best, I wasn't at the best for her and for my other kids. So doing it differently when she had diabetes meant being honest with how things were going in my world, which also meant that I changed my belief about asking for help. And, you know, I, as a young kid, really dreamt of being a mom.
And I always felt like if I asked for help, that meant I was failing at this job that I have dreamt of since I was a little kid. So there was no way I was going to ask for help because I wanted this role of motherhood. I...
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
changed my belief and realized how that belief was limiting me and I changed it to the realization that No asking for help is really strength that when you ask for help it means that you are Aware of what is on your plate and what you can handle and what you can't so being honest with yourself is such a gift. But you know, the other piece about asking for help is that it allows you to give a gift to someone else. We all love to serve and feel warm and fuzzy when we're able to make a difference in the life of somebody. So why not ask for help and allow your friend or neighbor or family member have that warm and fuzzy feeling by allowing them to help you. Like, and so once I realized that and really worked hard on making that a core belief, then things really turned around and changed.
Tim Reitsma
Hey, you talk about that on page 76 and I was gonna read it, but you alluded to it and I was gonna read a little bit here. I learned that if I need help in the future and find myself hesitating to ask for assistance, I need to remind myself of this warm feeling, the feeling that would be a gift I could give someone by allowing them to help me. That is such a selfless thing to think. And somebody might hear that and go, that's selfish.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Mm-hmm.
Tim Reitsma
but allowing someone to help. You know, I'm guilty of this. When I was in full flare with my Crohn's, people would ask me how I'm doing. And if my wife was with me, she'd like look at me, it was like, how are you gonna answer? I'd be like, I'm okay. And she's like, no, you're not. Why are you lying? And then she'd just go off and say, no, this is terrible. It's, you know, we've had to redesign our entire life, Tim's not working anymore, we have to get healthy for surgery. So no, Tim's not doing okay, but thanks for asking. And then it was, oh, if you need help, let us know. But it was more of a, hey, what do you need help with today? Do you need help with groceries? Do you need help? And giving that specific, I think allowed, and it's changed me to say, if somebody needs help, I will then say,
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yes.
Tim Reitsma
Can I buy you a meal? What, do you have any food allergies? I won't even say can I buy you a meal. Do you have any food allergies? Cause I'm gonna send you a meal. Be specific. And if you, right? And it comes down to even our topic is courage to advocate. We have to be specific, right? If we're sitting there in our doctor's appointment, if we aren't being honest with our doctor, how are we gonna get an honest diagnosis or answer back? It's same with our friends and that feeling of I'm fine. Or you wouldn't book a doctor's appointment.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Mm-hmm. Yeah, be specific. Yeah.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yes.
Tim Reitsma
sit down across from you and say, Dr. Marine, actually I'm fine. You feel like your blood test shows you're not. So where are we going from here?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Right. But you know, what you just said about like, um, how to help someone. I have changed how I help people now. Like when I will never say to somebody who just got some bad news or is having a bad day, like how can I help? Uh, because I know from being on the receiving side of that sometimes the individual is just so overwhelmed. Like they need help with everything and they don't know what to even ask for. So I have become very specific and don't give them a choice somewhat. I'll say like, I'm making dinner. Do you want me to bring it on Monday or Friday? But their choice is between Monday and Friday. It's not.
Am I going to bring dinner or not bring dinner? So the having the offering be specific to allow the individual who's receiving that service to not have their mind cluttered with a million different possibilities for the individual to help out with. It just takes a huge load off somebody's shoulders.
Tim Reitsma
It totally does. And it, and it directly ties into our topic, how to effectively disagree. Like there's so much potential emotion that somebody is going through. And then to have to make another decision of, Oh, what do you need help with? It's like, I don't have to, I don't have brain power for that. I am navigating something that I didn't think I would navigate. So I can't add, so I'm fine. Then that's my default. I'm fine. Leave me alone. And which then leads to that feeling of being overwhelmed.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yes. Right.
Tim Reitsma
and you touch on that in the book as well is, quickly before we wrap up, I'm curious, what practices have you put in place, just even in, you're a doctor, you see patients, you're a life coach as well, there's a lot going on in your life. How do you stay away from that feeling of being overwhelmed?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yeah, so I go back to it takes practice doing it. And it's the things I am gonna speak about is not going to happen for a listener who's not doing it. It's not gonna change them overnight. It's really dedicating a few minutes out of every day to follow that journey on a map to get to a better place. And the things that I have done in my own life is like my mornings are very sacred, that I have a very specific morning routine that I do to help manage and put myself into a good mindset and not allow overwhelm to creep in. And it, all begins with journaling. And we started off the show with, why did you write this book? And telling that story, it is an example of the power of journaling. Just allowing your mind to have a few minutes every day to get thoughts on a sheet of paper is so powerful.
You become this observer of all of the thoughts that are going on in your mind, and you can become very objective about them. But if you don't give yourself time to do that, then it's never going to happen. And your thoughts are going to kind of race by your mind and you're not going to be objective about them and you're not even going to become conscious about them. So journaling is really important. As part of that journaling practice, I also write three things that I am grateful for and those three things are very specific.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
It can't be I'm grateful for my kids or I'm grateful for my house. It is I'm grateful for the phone conversation I had with my daughter, or I'm grateful for the hot cup of coffee that I have waiting for me. Like the very specific. And there's great science that shows by doing that on a regular basis changes the lens that you are observing the world through. It doesn't mean more positive things are gonna happen to you and less negative things. It means the lens that we see our life through changes to where we're less focused on those negative challenges and we're really looking for those positive things that happen in our everyday life. The other thing that's really important in my day is exercise. There is a lot of science about how important exercise is for managing your mind and that exercise can be as equivalent as an antidepressant.
Well, if it does that much where it's changing the chemistry in our body to where it can act like an antidepressant, like there's a lot of science behind it. So that is a sacred thing in my day too. So doing those like small things, and it doesn't take me very long now because I've practiced it, but it's allowing dedicated time to take care of yourself and not feeling guilty about it because you have to fill your cup before you go on to take care of somebody else.
Tim Reitsma
So important, you have to fill your cup before you can take care of someone else. And if somebody is listening to this and is a caregiver and says, I don't have time. Well, I would gently argue and say, we do have time. And maybe that means 20 minutes of less of Netflix and going for a walk around the block or walk up and down the stairs a few times, whatever that looks like, taking that time.
Focus on yourself. I've seen it firsthand in me. Yesterday was recording this on a Monday, it was Sunday, which is in our house is a tech-free day. And in my mind, I'm thinking I've got so much to do. I just signed a new client. I've got so much work to do. And so I went for a little walk. I sat down and played a game with my kids and it just calmed me down to then wake up early in the morning and just get stuff done. And...
Here we are towards the end of the day and my list is almost empty and it's great. So I know it's easy to say, right? Yeah.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Well, and that, yeah, no, and you know, that's the message really, is that when folks think, I just don't have time, what they really don't understand is by getting into a good mental space and taking care of their emotional health, they actually get more done because they're able to focus better. And it's calming, not this erratic.
um, uh, uh, you know, movement through life that's creating fatigue at the end of the day, it's staying focused and being productive and then feeling energized and accomplished at the end of the day.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, I was talking with somebody recently about the workplace and, you know, we talk a lot about invisible conditions and, and there's a lot of fear sharing about what you live with, whether it's something you live with yourself, or maybe you're caring for somebody else. What if we took all that brain power that was hiding and that hiding behind that fear and that shame, and we were in a safe enough place in the world, whether it's school, like your daughter at this in school or, you know, she's in medical school and, or in the workplace to not have to worry about that. How much more work would we get done? How much more productive would we do? And, and, uh, yeah, it kind of leads me to, I guess, as we wrap up my last question, I ask all my guests is there's so much stigma that I'm hearing and I've experienced around something that's invisible and invisible condition. How are we going to end this stigma?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
You know, I think it goes back to curiosity. And if we were all a little bit more courageous to be a little bit more curious, that will allow us to build better trust with individuals. And by building better trust with individuals, we will get more accomplished, but we also will then have compassion and understanding and all that goes along with it.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, so true. Curiosity because of our being courageous. I love that. I'm gonna noodle on that for a little bit and write some content around that. I love that. And thank you for coming on. I learned a lot, especially, you know, I love the perspective from a doctor and you're talking about how to effectively disagree. And I know we talked about a few other different things, but I think the central message that I'm taking away is have that courage to disagree, get curious, be fascinated.
But in order to do so, we have to also take care of ourselves. We have to admit that we're not fine. And so I really appreciate you. I appreciate you sending me the book. I am really grateful that our paths crossed. And so thanks again for coming on.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
No, I appreciate you. The work that you are doing is incredible. And this has been such a lovely conversation. I really do hope that even just one of your listeners got something out of what we talked about today.
Tim Reitsma
oh, I'm sure they will. And if they didn't, I'm gonna be posting a lot on social media about this. So they will get something. And so before we wrap up, where could, if people have questions and want to get ahold of you, where's the best way to reach you?
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Yeah, so my website is Maur and that's Michelle with one L. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook as MaureenMichelleMD. And again, that's Michelle with one L.
Tim Reitsma
Perfect, and if you're listening and didn't catch that, head to the show notes, I'll have Dr. Maureen, Michelle's all of her links there. So with that, as always, I ask if you liked this episode, please consider writing a review, rating this podcast that helps us get noticed. There's a little donate button on the website. I don't like asking for help and it's something I'm being encouraged to reach out for. I see I'm squirming in my seat just asking this, but if...
If you love what we're doing, maybe consider donating a few bucks at invi So with that, I hope everyone has a great day and thanks again for coming on.
Dr. Maureen Michele Petersen
Thanks, Tim.
