Ep: 016 - Miscarriages Do Not Discriminate - Living with Recurrent Pregnancy Loss: Angel Leung
Angel Leung - Bio
Angel Leung is the founder of Baby Bean Consulting and a Registered Nurse by profession. In her personal journey, she experienced recurrent pregnancy losses, had severe anxiety during her pregnancies after loss, and navigated a traumatic postpartum transition after delivering her youngest. What became clear to her in these challenging life seasons, was the very real need for women to have a health advocate.
Angel has previously spent time working at the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit (NICU) at BC Women’s Hospital and Lions Gate Hospital in North Vancouver. In addition to bedside care, Angel has acted as a Clinical Instructor for UBC’s School of Nursing and served as a Regional Clinical Systems Educator for Vancouver Coastal Health. Private sector work experience includes a role as the Director of Wellness for Amica Senior Lifestyles.
Angel is a firm believer that what women need is empathetic care during difficult times – care that is timely, knowledgeable, and genuine. Her goal is to consistently show up for her clients and her passion is to see women receiving the highest quality of care from all healthcare providers.
Definition:
What Is Recurrent Pregnancy Loss (RPL)?
RPL is defined in the United States as two or more consecutive failed clinical pregnancies documented by ultrasound or histopathology - Link
Summary:
In this episode of the "Invisible Condition" podcast, host Tim Reitsma talks with Angel, a registered nurse from British Columbia, who courageously shares her journey through recurrent pregnancy loss. Angel opens up about the emotional rollercoaster and physical toll these experiences have taken on her and her family. Her story transitions into a broader discussion on the invisible nature of miscarriage, highlighting the stigma and silence that often surrounds this painful subject. Angel's insights reveal the hurtful and insensitive comments that exacerbate the suffering of those grieving, underscoring a significant societal understanding and compassion gap.
Moving from personal narrative to advocacy, Angel discusses how her experiences fueled a transition in her career towards providing specialized support for women enduring miscarriage, pregnancy after loss, and the postpartum period. She emphasizes the importance of open conversations, education, and awareness to dismantle the stigmas associated with pregnancy loss. Angel also touches on loss's profound impact on both parents, advocating for the need to check in on families as a whole. Angels shares her vision for a future where pregnancy loss is normalized, and individuals feel safe to share their experiences, fostering a community of support and understanding that acknowledges and honours the complexity of navigating pregnancy loss.
This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the impact of miscarriage and the importance of open conversations, compassionate support, and collective action toward healing and awareness.
Takeaways:
Recurrent Pregnancy Loss is a Shared Journey: Angel's story highlights that the journey of miscarriage and pregnancy loss is not only a physical and emotional challenge for the individual but also deeply affects partners and families, underscoring the need for collective support and understanding.
Breaking the Silence: The conversation emphasizes the importance of talking openly about miscarriage to combat the stigma and discomfort that often accompanies this experience. Sharing stories can create a more compassionate and informed society.
Compassionate Support is Crucial: Angel discusses the significance of receiving and offering compassionate support during times of loss, including simple gestures like checking in, listening, and acknowledging the pain and loss experienced by individuals and families.
Awareness and Education Can Change Perceptions: By educating ourselves and others about the realities of pregnancy loss, we can shift societal perceptions, reduce stigma, and foster a more supportive environment for those affected.
Naming and Remembering Lost Babies: Angel shares how naming her angel babies was an integral part of her healing process, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging and remembering lost pregnancies as part of the family's story.
Actionable Steps Towards Healing: The episode illustrates that healing from pregnancy loss involves both seeking and offering support, advocating for oneself in the healthcare system, and finding tangible ways to remember and honour lost pregnancies.
“Pregnancy losses can often be an invisible loss. And there’s just so much stigma and so much uncomfortableness when it comes to losing a baby.”
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction and Background
03:27 The Stigma and Lack of Education
06:58 Supporting Those Who Have Experienced Loss
10:29 Hurtful and Insensitive Comments
14:39 The Impact on Families
16:20 Breaking the Silence and Starting Conversations
20:19 Naming the Babies and Honoring Their Memory
22:08 Creating Safe Spaces and Trust
27:10 Checking In and Supporting Both Parents
32:23 Advocating for Yourself and Others
35:15 The Journey of Healing and Starting a Business
42:41 Creating a Safe and Supportive World
Transcript
Tim Reitsma
Angel, welcome to the Invisible Condition podcast. We go back, our families connected at church more than 10 years ago. And so we've walked alongside each other and our families for many, many years. And here we are on the Invisible Condition podcast. And I'm just so grateful for you and for the story that we're going to dive into today. So welcome to the show.
Angel Leung
Thank you for having me, Tim.
Tim Reitsma
And today's episode is a heavier conversation. And so for those who are listening, a bit of a content warning, we're gonna be talking about miscarriage, we're gonna be talking about loss. And I wanted to bring that up now because this is a serious topic. And often, even before we hit record, we talked about the invisible nature of recurrent pregnancy loss and miscarriage. But before we get into that conversation, why don't you share with us a little bit about yourself, what you're up to and why you decided that, hey, I wanna talk about this on this podcast.
Angel Leung
Yeah, thank you, Tim. I'm Angel and I'm a registered nurse here in British Columbia, Canada. And I have a background in neonatal intensive care and also doing a lot of education within the different healthcare authorities. But what I've experienced in my own personal journey is...
My husband and I, we experience recurrent pregnancy losses while trying to grow our family. And it's through that experience that I have kind of switched my career to really focus on bringing nursing support to women here in British Columbia in terms of support for them during a miscarriage during a pregnancy after loss and during a postpartum transition. So I am now a mom to two little ones at home, but I have also had three Angel babies in heaven. And so having gone through all of that and having had to navigate our healthcare system and not really knowing what to do during in the depth of our grief of losing our babies, it's really brought me to a point where I've realized that.
I have the professional experience and knowledge as a nurse and also the lived experience of going through the losses myself to be able to come alongside other women and to help them. And I really was really happy to be able to connect with you, Tim, in terms of being able to talk about this because pregnancy losses can often be an invisible loss. And there's just so much stigma and so much uncomfortableness when it comes to losing a baby. And people don't talk about it. And having gone through it multiple times myself, I really wanted to bring this to your podcast. I really wanted us to have this conversation and to just bring more awareness to our listeners on the fact that miscarriages happen. It doesn't discriminate. And I wanted to share a bit about my experience and also to talk about the support and resources that are out there.
Tim Reitsma
Hey, you're absolutely right. There is so much stigma that's attached to this. And I know for myself, me and my wife, we experienced a miscarriage and I had no idea how to process it and handle it. And I've now talked with others who have reached out through LinkedIn and through Instagram and said, Hey, Tim, will you cover this topic? And I had a guest on recently who talked about her recurrent pregnancy loss as part of our episode. And she gave an example of somebody had said to her, where did your baby go? And how do you respond to that? So there's so much stigma. And I think there's not just the stigma, but there's a lack of education, especially, not just in our workplaces, but even in our friend groups. And yeah, how...
You know, the big question is how do we end that stigma? Do we, do we just own it that, um, yeah, I don't know how to, how are we going to end that stigma?
Angel Leung
It's that's such a big question and it's a hard question. I don't think there is a clear-cut black-and-white answer to how do you end the stigma on pregnancy loss. But I think awareness and education is a huge part of it. And I think just a simple awareness of understanding that miscarriages happen and it's actually quite common, the current statistics for Canada is that one in four pregnancies end in a miscarriage. And so when you think about that number and you actually take time to process it, it's more than likely that you or someone around you that you know personally has experienced a loss. And when you think about it in that context, you realize that, oh, it's really common. Someone that I know probably have had a loss. And then you delve into like, how do you approach this topic? It's not an easy one. And we don't, as a society, we don't like to talk about loss. We don't like to talk about our babies dying. We don't like to touch on these topics because it's painful and it's scary. And so I think by just bringing awareness to it.
By just being able to either hold space for someone, for them to share their story, or to be proactive in checking in on those around us who have experienced loss. I think that is a small, tangible step that we can all do in terms of connecting as a community and bringing awareness and allowing this to be something that can become a safe topic that it can become something that is not scary and taboo, and that we can just simply ask, how are you doing after someone who's experienced a pregnancy loss?
Tim Reitsma
And what's come into mind is, um, I'm guilty of this, right? When we experienced a miscarriage, my question to the doctor at the time was, okay, when can we try again? And I've now realized that was a jerk thing to say. There was no compassion in it.
Angel Leung
But at the same time, yes, I hear you. But at the same time, I don't fault you for asking that question. Like, my husband asked the same question too. And it wasn't because he didn't care that I had lost our baby, that I was physically going through a miscarriage. It was because he loved me so much that we wanted our baby so much that in his mind, he couldn't take away my physical pain. He couldn't be in my place to take it for me. So he, as I think as my husband, he is a fixer. He wants to do something. He wants to be in control. So I think it's quite natural for the spouse to often ask questions that may in hindsight come off as a little bit insensitive, but it is also true, right? Like you wanted to know.
When can you guys try again? Because there was a goal as a family, as a couple, as a unit, you wanted to have a baby. It was a wanted pregnancy. But because you experienced a miscarriage, it felt like you were out of control. And you are, you weren't in control of that loss. And so I think it's quite common and quite natural for spouses to ask that type of question. But I think with that comment, it leads to the conversation of, there is a natural response of things that people say, spouses, how they respond, and families and friends, and how they respond to a loved one experiencing a pregnancy loss, versus just people maybe saying things that are just stupid. Things that are stupid and insensitive. And I think that people don't often recognize that. Like common phrases that we hear. And I think that we think it's normal and we accept it to be normal, but in reality, it's actually very hurtful. Things like when people hear that you've lost a baby or you experienced a loss, they might say something like, oh, you know, everything happens for a reason. And with a statement like that, it makes, when I've heard it myself during all of my losses, people would tell me, you know,
Angel Leung
you know, everything happens for a reason, that one just wasn't meant to be. And sure, maybe, I'm sure you had great intentions, but when you say something like that, when you make a comment and a statement like that, it makes me feel like that baby was not meant to be my baby. I wasn't meant to be a mom at that point. I lost the baby because I'm not meant to be, it wasn't meant to be. And everything happened for a reason, but what good reason was it that my baby died?
It didn't make sense and it was hurtful and I was deep in my grief and it was just not a helpful comment. And I think these are things where, these are conversations that I think we should have more of that, you know, we should just call, we should be able to call people out in a sense of some comments are hurtful and they're not helpful and we should steer away from making those comments.
Tim Reitsma
Comments like, oh, you can always try again, or, oh, you weren't that far along, or, you know, fill in the blank. And if, if you are squirming in your seat, or maybe this conversation, this part is making you uncomfortable. It's not intended to what it's intended to do is to bring that awareness, saying our words have an impact, even though they often have no ill intent.
Angel Leung
Mm-hmm.
Angel Leung
Exactly.
Tim Reitsma
When somebody says, oh, you could just try again. I understand there's no ill intent, but they have a profound impact. And so take that pause, think about what you're gonna say. And as you said, just simply ask, how are you doing? What can I help with? How can I support you? And so you and your family, you've experienced multiple loss. And I'm curious.
Angel Leung
Hmm.
Tim Reitsma
How has that affected you and your family?
Angel Leung
Ooh, it's affected us on so many different levels. And I think it's an invisible loss. And I think that oftentimes people look at my husband and I in our current day and they go, oh, look, they have two beautiful little kids. That's so wonderful. Like they're such a happy, beautiful family. But what they don't see is the years of heartbreak, the tears and the blood and the agony that we went through when we lost our other babies. And I think that's the invisible condition of pregnancy loss or someone going through infertility, someone going through recurrent pregnancy losses or anyone who has had any reproductive maternal struggles all be invisible and it's what you don't see. But from the outside you see a happy family because I do have two living kids right now. And so it's impacted us on multiple levels, but it's also, I think it's brought us the awareness of just how much compassion people can show someone who is going through a loss. And I think...
And I think I'm not the only one to share this because I've heard it from other lost families too, but I think it's not until you've lost a baby that you've had to say goodbye to your child that you realize that sometimes the support you have around you may not be what you had hoped for.
And I think that is an impact that pregnancy loss has brought to light for my family. There were individuals who were close in our family, in our circle, in our social circle, where they just weren't able to support us because they weren't aware. They didn't have the knowledge, the experience, or it just was really uncomfortable.
Angel Leung
They weren't prepared to support us and come alongside of us. So it felt like they didn't show up. And on the flip end, there were individuals who showed up in such unexpected ways, ways that were so appreciated and so needed in the acute stages of our loss that we weren't expecting. And so I think it all comes back to the compassion. Our miscarriages have brought forth the need for compassion for us to realize that there is such a need for compassion for families who are going through loss.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, what's coming up for me is, is that people and we're generalizing here don't often know how to support when they hear a friend or a family or a colleague say, yeah, we, we miscarried. It's how do we support? And I think that is, you know, it varies for every diff, for every person. And
Angel Leung
Exactly.
Tim Reitsma
as you said at the beginning, I hit you hard with that big question, how are we going to end the stigma, which wasn't intentional. I was just really curious about your thoughts are, but it's the education and awareness. And, and my mind always goes, okay, how do we increase education and awareness, because I think it ties in with how you can practically support someone. And so how do we, you know, I know we talk, I talk a bit about in the workplace and but also outside of the workplace with our friends with our family members.
Angel Leung
I'm gonna go.
Hmm.
Tim Reitsma
So how do we normalize this conversation? How do we bring this to the forefront? And I know loss is not easy to talk about. I personally, I struggle with talking about it. And I know I'm not the only one. Yet we need to talk about this because there's more than just a miscarriage. The miscarriage itself brings forth grief and other emotions and other health conditions that could potentially come out of this, out of a miscarriage. I've seen it. I think we've experienced it in our household. So how? What's coming to mind for you?
Angel Leung
I think like we mentioned and we chatted about earlier, bring awareness is huge, but I think like a tangible way of like just being able to start this conversation can be quite simple, but I think people are scared of doing it. And Tim, you've alluded to this in previous episodes too, of I think- in our current society, when we hear something uncomfortable or when we hear something that we think we might know something about, we are quick to jump in. We're quick to put words into other people's mouth and finish their sentence for them. And so I think I've experienced that myself when I've shared about my miscarriage where people might just jump in and say, oh, I've had one too. Or my friend, my neighbor, someone has had a miscarriage, but they got pregnant right away and they had a healthy baby and it's fine. You'll be fine. You will have another baby. And I think it's really important to be able to hold space for an individual who's experienced loss, for them to actually share their story. And I think it can start off with something as simple as, you know, if I have a friend who's gone through a loss, for me to simply just check in, to show up as a friend, whether it's physically or virtually, but to just show up and check in and be like, hey, how are you doing? And to ask simple questions like, do you wanna talk about your baby? It's such a simple question, but it can open up doors and allow someone to feel safe, to share their story, to tell you more about their experience, to bring awareness and to actually help you understand how they need help, how they need support.
And I think one thing that I have learned through our journey is that personally, my husband and I, we named all of our babies who left too early. And that was because they were our babies, they were a part of our family, and they mattered to us. And so naming them was part of our healing, part of our grieving, and part of the whole process. But it's quite surprising for us now in hindsight to realize that not a lot of people have ever asked us about our babies' names, because people just assume that, oh, it was early, it was just a miscarriage, it was you know, you got pregnant with another kid, like you're fine. And so when someone does take that time and ask me simply like, Angel, I'm so sorry about the losses you've experienced. I'm curious to know, have you had the chance to name your babies? Do they have a name that you were willing to share? That is so profound and so compassionate. It is such comforting thing for me to hear that someone cares enough to ask me about my babies who are not here and they want to know their names and it opens up a door for me to then share about their pregnancies about the time that we've had with them and about their life and to hold their memory and to be able to hold space and honor that has been very helpful and it's just such a simple question.
It's not like, I'm gonna sit here and dedicate two hours to listen to you. It's literally just, do you wanna talk about your babies and do they have a name? Can I call them by their name? It's something that is, I think, very personable, compassionate, and a tangible thing for people to do.
Tim Reitsma
Would you be able to share the names of your three babies in heaven?
Angel Leung
Yes, I would love to. My very first pregnancy ended in a early loss and we named our baby Nathaniel. And after Nathaniel, we had a baby girl, Amelia, who is now almost who's five. And after Amelia, we had consecutive losses and we had Bethany and then we had Eli. And then our almost two now.
Tim Reitsma
Timothy, what a great name. Well, thank you for sharing. As you were sharing, I'm actually holding back tears and I'm holding back tears because it makes it real. That simple act of, hey, what are their names? It takes this idea of.
Angel Leung
I know.
Tim Reitsma
Oh, it's only a loss. It's only a miscarriage and it puts significant weight behind it. And I feel that. So thank you so much for sharing. Uh, I feeling that weight of, um, of life, life that was lost. And, you know, I know that people who are listening, um, that people always have different reactions to, to different topics and I get that and, um,
Angel Leung
Mm-hmm.
Tim Reitsma
You know, as we're listening, as I'm listening and you know, you're putting names and putting that behind, it comes down to honestly, I think a place of feeling a huge sense of trust and a safe environment.
Angel Leung
Thank you.
Tim Reitsma
And what I have experienced and what I've been hearing is that even in our friends, friend groups, that there's that lack of safety, that lack of trust. How do we, you know, it's important to talk about, but if we don't feel safe, we don't talk about it. So how do we, you know, we're in this cycle and I'm hearing that across the board with invisible conditions. So, but primarily, but specifically for, for.
Angel Leung
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
pregnancy laws for miscarriage. What are your thoughts on that cycle of, I need to share, but I don't feel safe, but I need to share and I don't feel, so you're in that cycle.
Angel Leung
Mm-hmm. And I think you're right. It is It's like how do you break the ice? Right like it's this cycle and like people kind of know about it people have heard about it But then like unless you know you ask them point-blank Hey, have you had a miscarriage or do you know someone who's had a miscarriage? Like people don't it's not like it's not like a topic that comes up regularly. It's not like hey, how's your day? What do you think about miscarriage? It's a hard topic to talk about. And to be honest, I don't think I have an answer in terms of how to break the cycle. But what I do have is, in my own experience, I have found that being able to talk about my experience, whether I felt safe or not, was healing.
I have learned and I think maybe a part of it comes from the fact that I am a nurse and I kind of have a bit of a thick skin through that perspective of like, it's just something that needs to be talked about. It's like, like I remember going out for coffee with some girlfriends and this is a group of ladies who they haven't necessarily, they are not in the childbearing phase yet, but they are thinking about it. And like, I had already gone through a loss at that point. And it was more so just like laying it on the table and being like, hey, it can happen. Like miscarriages don't discriminate. This is the stat. And like, I am a nurse and I knew the stats. I know medically, clinically, what to expect, what it means and everything. But even then, it is devastating.
Even then, it is so hard to figure out what to do, how to get myself the support and the help that I need. And I think being able to just be open and talk about it, and I wasn't sure if it was going to be a welcomed thing to talk about during our coffee chat, I just felt the need to talk about it. And here was a group of friends who were women and they could potentially experience it. And so I felt like I needed to share. And through that, I think in hindsight now, it was good. It was good to have that conversation because one of them did end up having a miscarriage too. And I think having had that conversation through that coffee chat, it opened up the doors for her to then feel safe, to reach back out to me when she had to go through it. And so I think it's more so just like, when we are able to share our own experience and the connections that we make allows people to feel safe. And I know it sounds a kind of cliche, but we are stronger together. And I don't think we're ever meant to grieve the loss of our children all alone throughout the whole thing. I think there are times where it feels right to be alone and to have that space.
But then there is also time where you need your community and you need the support. And so being able to just be vulnerable allows people to realize that I can come alongside of you. I may not have what you need. I may not know what you need, but I am here because I love you as a friend. I love you as someone who is a part of your community and I'm showing up for you. And then it's, I think it's ultimately a learning experience for everybody. No one wakes up thinking, I am so prepared. Come at me, Ms. Carriage. I'm ready for you. Like...
Miscarriages aren't ever a thing that you can fully, fully prepare for. But I think being able to find the right support and being able to know that you can be vulnerable and have that safe space to talk about it is a good place to start.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah. And, and if somebody's listening and say, well, this doesn't resonate with me because I've never experienced a miscarriage. Um, you know, I haven't, my wife has. So therefore I have. Well, it's come into mind is again, another theme that has come out of invisible condition is that people. Again, often with no ill intent, people are there to support and to help. And yet.
We're creatures who want to fix things, at least I am. And again, I'm generalizing, I want to fix things. How can I help? What can I do? Can I do this? Can I do that? If that's your nature, if that's what you feel you're coming up with right now, take a pause. And as Angel has expressed a few times now is simply ask and simply tell, I am here for you. As well as on the other side I think loss can be lonely.
And, and if, and maybe if you're afraid to talk with someone, again, there's people out here and people that are more than willing to lend an ear. And I think it's also clearly communicating how, what you need. And maybe that need is like, I don't need anything. I just need somebody to listen. Matt, just grab that piece. Yeah, go ahead.
Angel Leung
And Tim, if I can jump in, I think as you were saying just now, like, it brought back to mind something that I like distinctively remember experiencing over and over again through all of our losses. I remember talking to my husband about it and being frustrated. And the thing was that in the midst of our miscarriages, I feel like people assumed that we needed space.
And so they gave us space. But along with this space that they were giving us also came silence. And I think that is a misconception that many people often have is that, oh, you're going through a loss. I'm gonna give you the space to grieve. And in regards to that, I will stay silent until you reach out to me because I am giving you the space. And I think that when you think about it, you're like, oh yeah, that sounds logical, reasonable, like that sounds like a nice thing to do to someone, right? But realities are like, yes, we needed the space. I need a space to mourn for my children. I need a space to connect with my husband. I need a space to heal physically and emotionally and everything. But I also needed people to check in on me because, I mean, we're kind of out of the pandemic now. And so it's a little bit different, but a couple of my miscarriages happened during the pandemic extraordinarily isolating to be going through a loss and to not have your friends and family be physically there to support you. And I think when people offer up silence because they think that's what you need, it can actually be quite hurtful because it can feel like I don't matter to you. My baby doesn't matter to you. Life moves on for everybody else, but my life has been shattered.
My heart has been shattered and my life will never be the same because my baby died. And when people just offer up their silence, that can actually feel so painful because it feels like they don't care. And the truth is they do care, they just don't know what to say, but I think that if maybe from both ends, that communication piece can be a little bit more robust in the sense of like, yeah, I'm grieving, I don't know what I need, but please do check in on me and ask me and maybe I'll be able to tell you in this moment what I need, that can be helpful. But on the other end, if you're the friend that's checking in, the family member that's there, please don't just assume that I want silence, I want space, but I also want you. I want you to care about me, about my baby, and about how we're doing.
And so I think that is something that I think in conversation with other lost families that is something that happens quite a lot. And it is never with ill intent. People just don't. It's not like people are giving us the silent treatment because we have it. Like our baby died. It was more so just, you don't know what to say. So we'll give you silence. But I think maybe that's a perspective that can shift. And in doing so that could probably bring some comfort to the families who are experiencing the loss.
Tim Reitsma
At what point?
Tim Reitsma
Was there ever like a transition point for you to say, I need to be more vocal about this. I need to, I'm going to, I'm going to take the initiative and talk to friends and talk to my workplace and talk to family.
Angel Leung
Yeah, for me, it was when we experienced our third loss. Our third loss was a second trimester loss and it was physically harder in terms of healing and the whole process. And emotionally, I was just a wreck because we had already gone through multiple losses and this was just, it just felt like it was too much to bear. And I think I was also hitting a point where I was raising my daughter. We were raising our daughter, she was a toddler. So I think people just assume that we were okay, that we have a living child at home, that like, you know, focus on her. At least you have like a living child and that your losses are kinda diminished and that it was okay that you will heal from it, number one, because you've done it before. And number two, like focus your energy on your living child, you can try. And so I think I got to a point where I was just so fed up that that's the expectation that we were gonna be okay when I wasn't okay. And so I think I went down a road where I ended up feeling like I really needed to advocate for myself in terms of my medical care because I wanted to know, I was pushing my doctors for more testing and more investigation of like, why? Why were we having recurrent pregnancy losses? I don't want to just be told that it's just like it's just common, it's stats and like, you know, you're one in four and you're unfortunate. Like I wanted answers. I am also a doer and a fixer and like I wanted something tangible where I could work off of it and be like, we're going to do X, Y, Z to figure this out. And then, and I think through that, like it ultimately led me to where I am today, where I started this business. I started baby being consulting, which is like as a registered nurse, that's what we're all about today. Like we are about coming alongside of women and families as they're going through losses. We're here to advocate for them. We're here to coordinate the care services for them. We're here to hear them and empower them to make informed choices regarding their situation because I felt like that was what was so lacking when I went through it. And I had no one to turn to. There wasn't anyone that could help me navigate the system. And I was a nurse myself and I felt like I was falling through the cracks. And so...
Angel Leung
I feel like the turning point for me was when I had my third loss and I just, I was just so done with the silence. I was so done with the, at least you have a daughter, you know, at least she's fine and she's healthy. And it just, I think it kind of pushed me over in a sense of like, I am not okay. We need to change. Let's talk about this and let's actually do something tangible. So I started a business.
Tim Reitsma
Wow. Well, thanks for sharing that journey. And, uh, you know, I can only imagine the emotion that you're going through. And the word that you said fed up was fed up with the silence, fed up with people, not checking it fed up with, Oh, just focus your energy on your other child. And, you know, grief strikes us all and we all process grief differently. And so there's no one.
Angel Leung
Yeah.
Angel Leung
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
solution. And I hear this again with every invisible condition that what works for you and how you process grief is different than how someone else processes and that's, you know, that makes it so challenging, but also makes it so important to be able to create those safe spaces for people like yourself who true inspiration. You came over for coffee about a month before we recorded and we just had a conversation, you, me and my wife, just about journey through miscarriage. And sitting there, honestly, it felt like a release, even for me, because nobody has ever asked, hey Tim, how was that process for you? And I remember sitting there and my wife said, My wife actually asked me, she's like, hey Tim, like how was that for you? And I was almost angry at myself because I couldn't really remember.
And I think that is also something important, right? I'm guilty of this. I never checked in with your husband and we used to be really good friends. We are good friends. So I'm going to make a stand now that if, if someone in our circle, if someone we know is going through loss, that I will check in and, and maybe that's the called action out of this, this episode, not to inundate people and overwhelm people but just be, if you care, check in. I think it's as simple as that. Is it as simple as that?
Angel Leung
Mm-hmm.
It is. I think it starts with something as simple as that. And I think, Timmy brought up such this, this can be a whole different episode, but like something so important of checking in with not just the wife, you know, the mom, the woman who is experiencing a little loss, but her spouse, her partner, her husband, like it matters because at the end of the day, I lost my baby, I miscarried our baby, but my husband also lost a son, lost a daughter. And again and again, he also went through that loss. And it was true, very, very few people ever checked in with him. He would be inundated with messages and calls from people asking how I was, asking if, is she still at the hospital? Is she home now? How is she?
People would ask about our daughter, but people wouldn't ask about him. And I think that sometimes we have this, we talk about it even now and I ask him, how are you? You know, like, how are you in terms of our journey, where we are now and what we've gone through and what we're hoping to do from our experience. And I think for him, it's similar to what you just shared, Tim. It's that through his own experience, he has now learned that when we hear about a friend or a family who's gone through loss, that he is now taking that initiative to check in with a spouse because it starts with that, right? And sometimes the wife bounce back quite physically fine, but then emotionally as a couple, it's hard. And then together they need the support from their social circle.
Tim Reitsma
Hmm.
Tim Reitsma
We have an amazing community through our church and through a past church. And I know there was people who checked in that time. And often it was a check-in with both of us or check-in with Tanya. But I remember feeling pretty lonely and isolated myself. And this isn't about me. This is about recurrent pregnancy loss how you said, yeah, there's two people. And I am grateful for the community that we have. I'm grateful for the people who had checked in on us. And I think this is just a reminder for those who are listening or who are going through loss.
Tim Reitsma
We need to show up. And if that showing up means let's be quiet and let's listen. Um, let's lend an ear. Let's hug and let's cry. Um, let's if we need to laugh, then let's laugh. If we need to celebrate, let's celebrate. If we, if we need to mourn, let's mourn. It's showing up.
Angel Leung
I love how you put it. I love how you are allowing people, our listeners, and in general, people to recognize that miscarriages are messy. Like physically they're messy, emotionally they're messy, and the grief journey is, grief is never linear, right? It's like waves, it comes at you, and some days you can manage it, some days you're drowning, and some days you're like, this is it.
I am not gonna make it. And so I think your invitation of inviting the community to come alongside of you and to have that space to be happy, to be sad, to be angry and to like fall apart and not have your life together because you lost your baby. I think that is very beautiful in a sense of like, it is honestly a tangible way of showing up. It's a tangible way of being there and allowing people to know that, you know, we care about you. We care about the baby that left too soon and that we will be here together to help you through it. And so, yeah, thank you for bringing that up. That was, I think that's very comforting.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, well, thank you for this conversation. And, uh, you know, something that comes to mind is, um, the word advocacy and self-advocacy, which is what you're doing in your business. Uh, and, and don't worry, we're going to put all the links, uh, to how to get a hold of Angel Leung in the show notes, but I think that's a, a good, maybe a natural way, place to, to wind down our conversation, but I always ask our guests, every guest, no matter what topic we're talking about is the vision of invisible condition is to end the stigma. And we've, we've talked about a few tangible ways, but you think of a world where, you know, your kids are growing up and if they live with something that's invisible, how are we going to create a place where they are comfortable sharing with their friends, their workplace society? How are we going to do that?
Angel Leung
Yeah.
Angel Leung
That is such a good question and such an important question. And I think that in terms of pregnancy loss and the invisibility of it, I think I really want to share how I see my daughter experiencing it because my daughter, she has witnessed our loss journey alongside of us. She was young, she was a toddler when I had multiple losses back to back, but she was also there. She physically saw my body change. She knew when I ended up in the hospital. She understood that there was a baby in mommy's tummy and the baby's heartbeat stopped and mommy had to go to the hospital. She understood all of that. And so we've watched our daughter grow up and now she's in kindergarten. And it's actually quite heartwarming as a mom and also as a nurse watched my little girl go into the world now, into the big world, go to school, and to hear back from her school, for them to tell me that, hey, yeah, Amelia came to school and she shared. She shared about you, about what you did. She shared that her mom is a nurse and her mommy works with other moms who can't bring their babies home. And I think it's powerful.
For me to see that my daughter understands. And like, as a five-year-old, she has witnessed our loss and our healing and our whole journey. And she is a part of it. It is her sibling. It is her story too. And so for her to like comprehend it and also then understand the compassion she has to show towards other people who have gone through loss is very powerful for me. Like...
We had a family friend who went through a loss and my daughter is able to have a conversation with me and say, mommy, did Auntie So-and-so have a miscarriage? And I was able to tell her, yeah, unfortunately she did. She had a miscarriage and her baby's not there anymore. She's not gonna have this baby. And for my little five-year-old to understand and be like.
Angel Leung
Oh, okay, well, mommy, are you gonna help her? And she's gonna be okay. Should we make her a card? Should we drop off some food? Can I go on a play date with her kids? Like, for her to have those tangible ways of showing up and showing compassion and loving on our friend who's gone through a loss because she's seen us go through it, I mean, that's something that I think is already breaking the stigma for her generation. She's normalizing talking about it. She draws picture at school of our family and she draws our family of four, but she also draws her Angel Leung siblings because she knows that is also her family. And she's proudly telling her teachers that, oh, these are my siblings who weren't able to stay. These are our babies in heaven. And I think that, I think for me as a mom, I think that is, that's a very prideful thing. Like in a sense, like I feel proud of my daughter that she gets it and that she knows her story, but she also knows how to reach out and help others who have gone through losses. So, yeah.
Tim Reitsma
That's beautiful. Thanks for sharing. You know, it's a it's a big question. And what you're doing is practical. And your daughter is not afraid to talk about it. And I think this upcoming generation is going to be not afraid to talk, not afraid to ask for what they need. And also show how they are contributing in your case to the classroom or into the workplace and say, look,
Angel Leung
I'm feeling it.
Tim Reitsma
I live with something or I've experienced something, but that doesn't define me. It just adds to my characters, adds value to whatever organization I'm part of, whether it's school, friends, your workplace. So Angel, I really appreciate your openness and honesty and your advocacy and the work you're doing in your consulting company. So if somebody is interested and wants to know more, wants to connect with you, how can they get ahold of you?
Angel Leung
Mm-hmm.
Angel Leung
Well, they can find us through our website. We're on Instagram and LinkedIn. So basically you can find us on social platforms, but I believe Tim is gonna drop all our contacts down on the show notes too. So yeah, please do feel free to whoever's listening if you need support or you just wanna chat, we're happy to connect because I don't think.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah.
Angel Leung
I don't think you're meant to go through this journey alone, this journey of loss, so don't do it alone.
Tim Reitsma
Yeah, again, beautiful. And thanks to everyone who's tuning in. I know today's episode was a little heavy, emotional. I'm feeling it. I'm going to go for a walk here in a moment, but it's such an important topic. Invisibility of loss is something that we need to continue to talk about. And so if you have comments on this episode or if you continue to enjoy what you're listening to, I.
Angel Leung
Yeah.
Tim Reitsma
Love hearing from people. Connect with me on Instagram, Invisible Condition or on LinkedIn, just search Tim Reitsma. Or if you have the opportunity to leave a rating or even donate to keep this project going, I truly appreciate you and I truly appreciate that. So with that, hope you have an amazing day, Angel, and thanks again for everyone tuning in.
Angel Leung
Thank you.
